Kobe Bryant, 41, daughter, 13, killed in helicopter crash

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

If there's one thing you can count on to happen on CP, it's for a thread to somehow evolved into a rape thread.

Easily CP's favorite topic.

Same thing happened in the Weinstein thread. I just wanted to talk about Good Will Hunting.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by speede5

Wasn't the outcome of that movement to believe the accuser, making the accused guilty until proven innocent?

Outcome? I'm not sure.

The original purpose was to a) let victims know that they weren't alone, that there have been many (far too many) that have been sexually assaulted who are now there to provide support, empathy, and understanding and b) to let the world know just how many people have been sexually harassed and that they weren't going to suffer in silence and allow it to continue quietly. It was never really the intention to somehow turn men into the victims.

I think the outcome you speak of has been a bit of an unintended consequence but the real outcome was that the victims would be heard, that they wouldn't be quickly dismissed for whatever reason.

"She couldn't have been raped by Weinstein, she just wanted a job and now regrets what she had to do to get it." "That movie star never would have to resort to rape, he could get any woman he wanted, she is just looking for a cash grab." "Oh, she couldn't have been raped because she's a huge slut."

I try to look at it as Schrodinger's assault. Until both parties have had their chance to speak, present evidence, etc. you somehow have to give both parties the benefit of the doubt. It's a hard web to untangle for sure and often times we will be left unsatisfied with a he-said she-said outcome.

I mean the #MeToo movement was pretty much about stopping what happened to Kobe's alleged victim from continually happening. She had her name inadvertently released by the court, but certain media took it and released it outside of normal practices not to name rape victims. They tried to find flaws in her story for no other reason except who she was accusing.

She was on medication at one point, therefore she was unreliable. She had sex with a man 72 hours before the alleged rape, therefore there was no way she would not have sex with Kobe. She was working at a hotel so she was just trying to get some easy money by blackmailing him. She had struggled with mental health and was therefore just an attention whore.

Forgetting the death threats, the fake nudes made, the doxxing of her by the more crazed fans, just the public in general was terrible. Regardless of whether you believe Kobe thought it was consensual. And then of course when she decides it would be easier to just drop from testifying it made all the "accusations" against her that much more fact. Pretty easy to see why women in similar positions would not want to come forward and have the same stuff happened to them when they are already struggling due to the assault.

[flamingred89]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

I don't really see him as a serial rapist though. That's what you're saying. He's a repeat/serial criminal rapist guilty of multiple counts. I have zero doubt that he had sex with a lot of women for sure before and maybe after. But there was no pile on effect when he was charged. There is no other event in his life. You could make a lot of money having an encounter with Kobe and filing charges afterwards. But that never happened. If he had done this to many people I still think we'd know about it. But absolutely one of the first things I thought about was his victim.

I tried to choose my words somewhat carefully as not to make accusations that he was a serial offender but to say there was a likelihood that he may have done the same actions, to varying degrees, at other times in his life. I just wanted to challenge the notion that this was a one time mistake and that he was different from the Cosby’s, Weinstein, and R Kelly’s. That minimizes what he did. And it’s not meant to single you out, as you called him out on his actions earlier in the thread, but to challenge the popular idea that he made a mistake and to move on.

[OMG!WTF!]

I tried to choose my words somewhat carefully as not to make accusations that he was a serial offender but to say there was a likelihood that he may have done the same actions, to varying degrees, at other times in his life. I just wanted to challenge the notion that this was a one time mistake and that he was different from the Cosby’s, Weinstein, and R Kelly’s. That minimizes what he did. And it’s not meant to single you out, as you called him out on his actions earlier in the thread, but to challenge the popular idea that he made a mistake and to move on.

Yeah it's definitely important not to minimize it or justify it. But I also think what he did was maybe not out of the ordinary for some of the people he was with before this. Like I said, no one ever told him no and no one ever expressed anything but adoration for him. That likely makes your judgment a little off. But the criminal mind that makes you a serial rapist is I think much different.

[speede5]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...tweet-n1124031

Interesting action/reaction.

[Wiggum_PI]

Here's an interesting article that details the flight path with 3D views from google maps.

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/ne...ns/4591226002/

[Calgary14]

I read somewhere earlier that Kobe and his wife had an agreement where they would never fly together on the same helicopter

[KootenayFlamesFan]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1222314192138428416

[tvp2003]

#Girldad

https://twitter.com/user/status/1222017206491459585

[TheSutterDynasty]

Whoa guys, do I need to bump my blackface thread?

Wear an Arabian prince costume with face paint in 2001 = everyone hates you.

Rape a woman in 2003 = doesn't matter, good basketball player. He probably made up for it or didn't do it again or something.

I'm confused.

[doozwimp]

Was never a big fan of Kobe for a myriad of reasons but you have to admit he was an icon, certainly the most prominent player of his era. Not surprising in the least that his death has been given this kind of treatment. Regardless I tend to think he was overrated and his metrics seem to support that. Outside of Jordan and Westbrook he had the highest usage of any player EVER but his shooting percentage was below league average but the NBA needed a poster boy and no one else had his combination of charisma and domination and as a result the propaganda machine starts and he becomes a poster boy and his impact is global. And there is the fact that he maybe sorta raped someone, even though its a little insensitive to bring it up at this point... Even given all that his idol worship is understandable. I think his legacy is that even though he wasnt Jordan he could work harder than Jordan and even have more points than him in the end and thats a big deal.

Still sad and shocking. Given all the admissible details of the accident I`ve found this a little hard to process.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

#Girldad

https://twitter.com/user/status/1222017206491459585

Oh good god. Said every dad who has girls ever.

And for that woman, whoever she is, to break down like that on the air is comical.

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by Calgary14

I read somewhere earlier that Kobe and his wife had an agreement where they would never fly together on the same helicopter

I read this too. The article also mentioned Kobe never further explained why this was the case, like the article writer didn't know why.. seems pretty obvious. Especially now.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

I read this too. The article also mentioned Kobe never further explained why this was the case, like the article writer didn't know why.. seems pretty obvious. Especially now.

This isn't the most unusual policy to have. I know pilots who won't fly with their spouses unless it's commercial. For exactly this reason, not to leave kids orphaned.

I know married pilot couples in the RCAF who never fly together as well. I don't know if it's official policy or unwritten but it's the norm. My one friend flew with his wife only once a couple days before he retired.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Whoa guys, do I need to bump my blackface thread?

Wear an Arabian prince costume with face paint in 2001 = everyone hates you.

Rape a woman in 2003 = doesn't matter, good basketball player. He probably made up for it or didn't do it again or something.

I'm confused.

Well, I would a few differences are:

-For Kobe, the rape accusation was not a repetitive event.

-There was an effort by Kobe not to victim shame, he tried to understand where the victim was coming from, but rather defend his belief that his recounting of the events was different.

-he did apologize and admit that regardless of whether it was consensual, that it was not appropriate for a myriad of reasons

-He faced the music and the trial, and was not found guilty. We don't know exactly what happened, and since then he did make a lot of efforts to advocate for women

-There was no more smoke that followed him in his personal life. He was very well respected from those close with him, and did not have other accusations of him abusing power

So its not really clear to me if he did anything illegal, or if it was a one off mistake. He faced it, and has bettered himself, and been a valuable member of society, including being a good father to his girls. People make mistakes, and we shouldnt label people black and white.

Ultimately, he was a person that touched a lot of people in a real positive way, and is simply someone that everyknow knows and has connected with in some way.

As far as the Trudeau stuff, thats just a different conversation with a different context, that IMO, has no place in this topic.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

-There was an effort by Kobe not to victim shame, he tried to understand where the victim was coming from, but rather defend his belief that his recounting of the events was different.

Are you kidding? There was a targeted effort to victim shame her that was almost certainly the result of the PR he hired and his lawyers. I mean arguably the biggest reason she refused to testify was that her sexual activity was found to be admissible and she would have to sit there while Kobe's lawyers questioned her on all her past sexual partners. Keep in mind this was while her name was released, people were already calling her a slut, and there was fake nude images of her made and posted as 'legitimate.' This was, again, while the media was trying to discredit her as a victim, from her mental health to sexual history, and was likely in part due to the PR firm Kobe was paying. The fact that most people simply dismiss her as a dishonest person seeking a cash grab from him despite the evidence shows how well of victim blaming was done at Kobe's behest.

Great for Kobe's defense, can't blame him if the alternative is a huge increase in the chance of going to prison, but we can't go on to say that there was no victim shaming.

Also his recounting of events was different, because he lied about it multiple times so no matter what it would be...

[Ashasx]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1222356137313546240

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Are you kidding? There was a targeted effort to victim shame her that was almost certainly the result of the PR he hired and his lawyers. I mean arguably the biggest reason she refused to testify was that her sexual activity was found to be admissible and she would have to sit there while Kobe's lawyers questioned her on all her past sexual partners. Keep in mind this was while her name was released, people were already calling her a slut, and there was fake nude images of her made and posted as 'legitimate.'

Great for Kobe's defense, can't blame him if the alternative is a huge increase in the chance of going to prison, but we can't go on to say that there was no victim shaming.

Also his recounting of events was different, because he lied about it multiple times so no matter what it would be...

I guess I remembered more clearly his quotes as the trial was ending where he acknowledged that he no longer questioned her motives and didn't discount that her recollection of events, that he believed were true from her perspective, but he had a different understanding of events in the moment.

I don't know, its a tough subject, but it seemed further ahead of the crap apologies that we get today. But your points are well taken.

[Sainters7]

It's been so long so perhaps I'm misremembering, but I seem to recall her deference attorney walking away from the case, and her mom getting busted for tampering with the evidence. If correct, not really a good indication that it went down as they stated when stuff like that is happening.. In the end the case was dropped, so not really sure how he's being labelled as such.

The public shaming, harassment and death threats are a whole other matter though. People are freaking psychos when it comes to defending their cherished idols.. scary stuff

EDIT: I confused the Kobe case with the Kane case, it's been too long..

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

It's been so long so perhaps I'm misremembering, but I seem to recall her deference attorney walking away from the case, and her mom getting busted for tampering with the evidence.

First off, that was Kane. Not Kobe.

Second, alleged rape victims are not the defense.