Kobe Bryant, 41, daughter, 13, killed in helicopter crash

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

I have been hoping that most here are just too young to remember this, or have really short memories. Because the alternative and what it says about people is disturbing.

I will fully admit that being a lightning rod of sorts I've just avoided bringing it up to avoid the pile-on, and commend Zarley (regardless of disagreements we've had in the past) for being the first to broach it.

EDIT: Terrible page snipe.

It's a complicated topic but I don't think there's much doubt that the public is quick to forgive (or reject) notions that top players/entertainers/politicians/etc. are sexual predators, and this is just another such incident in a long line of cases.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

I have been hoping that most here are just too young to remember this, or have really short memories.

I think it might be the opposite too. I remember what he did. I think he should have gone to jail. I think his lawyers are scumbags. He's a 25 year old who never once had anyone say no to him and he's also a 41 year old by all accounts decent guy. He never really paid a price for his crime but he also atoned for it in some ways. But he still did it. It's important to remember both.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

I have been hoping that most here are just too young to remember this, or have really short memories. Because the alternative and what it says about people is disturbing.

The media has been dancing around the elephant in this hotel room - I suppose out of sympathy for the victims and their families? Too soon to take his full measure?

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by troutman

The media has been dancing around the elephant in this hotel room - I suppose out of sympathy for the victims and their families? Too soon to take his full measure?

There are eight more innocent victims in this tragedy, so I think its fair not to turn the entire thing and coverage about what happened in the early 2000s. But to turn him into a full on god to be revered is a bit much. I have just mostly steered clear of this as well after seeing the mob freak-out that formed when someone added a tag they didn't like. But the way the world seems to have their head stuck in the sand on this is troubling. I've been mostly in disbelief since that point.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Zarley

I was initially surprised to see the outpouring of public grief for a guy who probably raped a 19 year old minimum wage hotel employee and definitely cheated on his wife, but then I remembered the hysteria after MJ died and wasn’t so shocked - people are strange. He was a great basketball player, but probably not a such a great guy, RIP.

No you weren't, you'd have to live under a rock to be surprised by this. You just want to be that guy to make this comment first.

And to say he probably wasn't such a great guy is deaf to what all the people who met him seem to say.
From other athletes, reporters, fans, kids he taught, charities he worked with, everyone who knew him in any way seems genuinely to say he was a great guy.
While that sentiment always comes up when people die, it does feel more heartfelt and genuine watching interviews from people in this case.

If he was guilty for rape, I'm not downplaying that. It's part of his story and something he had to redeem himself for, something he maybe deserved punishment for, something that woman and both of their families had to heal from.

But people do become better people, even from enormous mistakes. All evidence seemed to indicate Kobe did become a much better person in the decades since that incident.

Trying to take that away from his story and pretend he's an eternal bad guy who shouldn't be mourned, says more about you as a person than it does about him.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

No you weren't, you'd have to live under a rock to be surprised by this. You just want to be that guy to make this comment first.

And to say he probably wasn't such a great guy is deaf to what all the people who met him seem to say.
From other athletes, reporters, fans, kids he taught, charities he worked with, everyone who knew him in any way seems genuinely to say he was a great guy.
While that sentiment always comes up when people die, it does feel more heartfelt and genuine watching interviews from people in this case.

If he was guilty for rape, I'm not downplaying that. It's part of his story and something he had to redeem himself for, something he maybe deserved punishment for, something that woman and both of their families had to heal from.

But people do become better people, even from enormous mistakes. All evidence seemed to indicate Kobe did become a much better person in the decades since that incident.

Trying to take that away from his story and pretend he's an eternal bad guy who shouldn't be mourned, says more about you as a person than it does about him.

The only thing worse than people bringing up Bryant's rape allegations are those who explain them away.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Shortly after the alleged rape, the alleged victim went to both the hospital and the police. The rape kit indicated numerous lacerations around her vagina consistent with rape. She offered to take a polygraph test when questioned by police. She also had bruising around her neck consistent with the story that Kobe had been forceful with her.

When the police questioned Kobe, he denied anything happened multiple times. Until they told him there was physical evidence. That's when he offered to pay her off. Including asking the officers "“Is there any way I can settle this whatever it is, I mean…?”

His defense was that he also got rough with the other girl he cheated on his wife with.

The victim had her name drug through the mud, namely that she had schizophrenia that required medication at one point and that she was sexually active (as a 19 year old!). Perhaps more serious, the court inadvertently released her name and address and she began to receive death threats.

With the defense allowed to enter her sexual activity into evidence, the death threats, and public humiliation, she decided to withdraw from testifying.

This was a case of how money can buy you great PR if nothing else. But fortunately we don't have to decide if the alleged victim was truthful or not. We can take Kobe's word for it:


You know what a sexual encounter that one party doesn't consent to is called? Rape.

My comment was more in his incredible work for youth basketball, his philanthropic work, and his work with women’s basketball.

There’s a lot more to Kobe Bryant than his his sexual assault.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by gasman

As someone who has a family member with ALS, your comments are extremely ignorant. The Ice Bucket challenge raised a ton of money... none of it unreasonable that pushed research ahead quickly and was directly responsible for at least one new drug on the market to slow it down. The sad part of it is that it was a flash in the pan and now fundraising has declined to the point where research is pulling back, specifically because ALS doesn't have the name recognition of Cancer or Heart Disease.

Very short sighted, ignorant view of the world.

You said it yourself; funding has dried up.

Because it's not 'cool' anymore.

You're proving my point.

[speede5]

It is interesting how quick society is to forgive certain individuals and others are expected to have their careers and lives forever destroyed.

How many people have been taken down by the MeToo movement? How many will be forgiven in time. Wasn't the outcome of that movement to believe the accuser, making the accused guilty until proven innocent?

People do make mistakes and forgiveness is important. It sure seems a lot easier to get forgiven when you are extremely popular and wealthy.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by speede5

It is interesting how quick society is to forgive certain individuals and others are expected to have their careers and lives forever destroyed.

How many people have been taken down by the MeToo movement? How many will be forgiven in time. Wasn't the outcome of that movement to believe the accuser, making the accused guilty until proven innocent?

People do make mistakes and forgiveness is important. It sure seems a lot easier to get forgiven when you are extremely popular and wealthy.

Also when you acknowledge the other person's pain and suffering.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by speede5

It is interesting how quick society is to forgive certain individuals and others are expected to have their careers and lives forever destroyed.

How many people have been taken down by the MeToo movement? How many will be forgiven in time. Wasn't the outcome of that movement to believe the accuser, making the accused guilty until proven innocent?

People do make mistakes and forgiveness is important. It sure seems a lot easier to get forgiven when you are extremely popular and wealthy.

I think it's more to do with the reality of the person's life. Weinstein made a living as a rapist. Cosby. Gomeshi was a super dbag. MJ did kids. Tyson was crazy and dangerous but is making some progress. I put Mike Vic in this category as well. I hated him but he's trying to make amends. Kobe was bad once but learned and made some decent changes and has some positive effects in his life. It's weird to rank these guys but there is something to it. He's not Weinstein.

[CroFlames]

Where does Mayweather fall in your rankings?

[Manhattanboy]

Celebrity fanboys/girls like Fallon and Ellen breaking down in tears over Kobe is a bit much.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Celebrity fanboys/girls like Fallon and Ellen breaking down in tears over Kobe is a bit much.

Nik- and Jiggy-12 are probably having an aneurysm right now. Fallon and Ellen should have devoted their entire show to him. Maybe just suck it up and power through the crying.

[Language]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Celebrity fanboys/girls like Fallon and Ellen breaking down in tears over Kobe is a bit much.

Or maybe they just knew him and are distraught about it? What a strange comment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

No you weren't, you'd have to live under a rock to be surprised by this. You just want to be that guy to make this comment first.

And to say he probably wasn't such a great guy is deaf to what all the people who met him seem to say.
From other athletes, reporters, fans, kids he taught, charities he worked with, everyone who knew him in any way seems genuinely to say he was a great guy.
While that sentiment always comes up when people die, it does feel more heartfelt and genuine watching interviews from people in this case.

If he was guilty for rape, I'm not downplaying that. It's part of his story and something he had to redeem himself for, something he maybe deserved punishment for, something that woman and both of their families had to heal from.

But people do become better people, even from enormous mistakes. All evidence seemed to indicate Kobe did become a much better person in the decades since that incident.

Trying to take that away from his story and pretend he's an eternal bad guy who shouldn't be mourned, says more about you as a person than it does about him.

Tell that to the girl he raped and their family. Whatever he did later in life will never erase that or clean his image. He made a mistake...such f&cking bullsh&t.

[flamingred89]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Kobe was bad once but learned and made some decent changes and has some positive effects in his life. It's weird to rank these guys but there is something to it. He's not Weinstein.

I understand your sentiment, and I think there is room to celebrate the athlete, but I have to challenge the notion that he was bad once and made amends. Perpetrators of sexual assault are invariably high repeat offenders. There is a very likely chance that Kobe offended again, or did previously to that incident. This was long before the #metoo movement and even today only a small percentage of sexual assaults get reported. And the more we minimize the actions or say these men made a mistake, the more likely things won’t change.

I’m glad there is a little shift in this thread to have a discussion about his actions. It may be uncomfortable, but we need to remember what he did out of respect for his victim and their families.

[bluejays]

At what point do you outweigh everything a person does, with one fault he or she did in their life? Does one mistake/lapse in judgement/callitwhatyouwant outweigh everything a person has ever done? If a person has actively worked to make genuine amends, isn't necessarily looking for the publicity out of it (I don't believe Kobe did it as such), and his letter acknowledged differences in what occurred, then he should probably be absolved at this point of his wrong doing. The fact that his defence team or others may have leaked other issues with the poor women, isn't necessarily his fault. Neither is society's need at the time to trash her. Those are on those individuals. It really comes down to telling the full story, but when a person in general tries to make amends for something, that should be acknowledged as well. When some say he should be chastised for that one night, I think is wrong, because what he did is a part of his story but does not outweigh everything. Statistics can say whatever about repeat offenders, but there's no evidence to believe he did anything before or after this incident to allude that this wasn't a one time issue.

[OMG!WTF!]

I understand your sentiment, and I think there is room to celebrate the athlete, but I have to challenge the notion that he was bad once and made amends. Perpetrators of sexual assault are invariably high repeat offenders. There is a very likely chance that Kobe offended again, or did previously to that incident. This was long before the #metoo movement and even today only a small percentage of sexual assaults get reported. And the more we minimize the actions or say these men made a mistake, the more likely things won’t change.

I’m glad there is a little shift in this thread to have a discussion about his actions. It may be uncomfortable, but we need to remember what he did out of respect for his victim and their families.

I don't really see him as a serial rapist though. That's what you're saying. He's a repeat/serial criminal rapist guilty of multiple counts. I have zero doubt that he had sex with a lot of women for sure before and maybe after. But there was no pile on effect when he was charged. There is no other event in his life. You could make a lot of money having an encounter with Kobe and filing charges afterwards. But that never happened. If he had done this to many people I still think we'd know about it. But absolutely one of the first things I thought about was his victim.

[Huntingwhale]

If there's one thing you can count on to happen on CP, it's for a thread to somehow evolved into a rape thread.

Easily CP's favorite topic.