63 Canadians killed after civilian airliner shot down.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

You are being obtuse. My point is can you imagine there may be some other motivations for American adventurism in the Middle East beyond your crude perception of mercantilism in the 20th/21st century?

No major country invades countries for resource gain anymore. This isn't the 18th century. Aa you pointed, free trade makes this a moot issue.

No since the 1920's we have invaded other countries in order to install regimes that extend our economic interests and allow us to access to resources, in the case of the middle east we are there to keep the Russians out and keep our interests protected.

That's why we aren't in Africa any more, they have nothing we really want

[peter12]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

No since the 1920's we have invaded other countries in order to install regimes that extend our economic interests and allow us to access to resources, in the case of the middle east we are there to keep the Russians out and keep our interests protected.

That's why we aren't in Africa any more, they have nothing we really want

Sweet lord.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

Explain how.

It is my experience that people who tend to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the state of Israel tend to also call it an apartheid state, support the boycott, only maintain it through the gross display of strength, etc...

As well, there is an implicit undertone that the Jews founded Israel through treachery and deceit (clearly part of broad anti-Semitic tropes).

Never mind that Israel is a state that legitimizes itself through fair and free elections, an independent judiciary, and wide-ranging human rights for its citizens.

[peter12]

Also let's get something clear about the creation of Israel. People like afc like to blab on about the Balfour Declaration like it was some clear instance of Imperialist drawing lines in the Middle East. No, in 1947, the UN ratified an agreement to create distinct Jewish and Arab states in the former Palestinian Mandate (a British controlled territory).

This didn't last as all of Israel's surrounding neighbours declared a genocidal war on the Jews and attacked Israel, which at the time received almost no international arms aid from the West, except for equipment they stole from British bases or surplus German equipment they bought from the Czechs.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

Because if the Saudi Royal family falls, the theocratic nightmare that will take its place will make Iran look like a drum circle.

You mean it will be a brutal undemocratic regime that purposefully or otherwise exports terrorism to the rest of the world in advance of its grim Wahhabi interpretation of Sunni Islam, making it responsible for the creation of Al-Qaeda and ISIS, and countless other Islamic terrorist groups spawned in the wholly Saudi funded Madrassa's across the third world, it might invades the Yemen killing hundreds of thousands of Shia?

That would be awful, oh yes right, that's what they do now

[nik-]

Because it couldn't possibly be worse.

It must be amazing to see everything as so simple. I envy you.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

It is my experience that people who tend to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the state of Israel tend to also call it an apartheid state, support the boycott, only maintain it through the gross display of strength, etc...

As well, there is an implicit undertone that the Jews founded Israel through treachery and deceit (clearly part of broad anti-Semitic tropes).

Never mind that Israel is a state that legitimizes itself through fair and free elections, an independent judiciary, and wide-ranging human rights for its citizens.

So we are clear I cast no doubt on the legitimacy of Israel, I think they are as legitimate as every other country in the world.

What I do accept though is that in much the same way as the history of Canada has led to a First nations population who have some fairly well founded resentments of what has happened to them the founding of the state of Israel has led to a diaspora of very angry Palestinians who have lost their land in order for Israel to exist, there's nothing we can do to alter this, but we are kidding ourselves if we don't at least admit this

[peter12]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

So we are clear I cast no doubt on the legitimacy of Israel, I think they are as legitimate as every other country in the world.

What I do accept though is that in much the same way as the history of Canada has led to a First nations population who have some fairly well founded resentments of what has happened to them the founding of the state of Israel has led to a diaspora of very angry Palestinians who have lost their land in order for Israel to exist, there's nothing we can do to alter this, but we are kidding ourselves if we don't at least admit this

I don't see them as being remotely the same.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

Because it couldn't possibly be worse.

It must be amazing to see everything as so simple. I envy you.

Worse for who, us? the rest of the region, the Saudi's? ARAMCO?

You might be right but can we stop pretending we give a bolloxs about democracy? we don't care, we put almost everything above democracy in this particular region.

We do almost nothing to prop up or bring down equally grim repugnant regimes in Africa (except Nigeria and Libya, purely coincidentally countries with large reserves of Oil), we havent invaded Mali or the Congo or Angola in a century, in fact the only attention we pay to Africa these days is because China has moved in there economically and we are now suffering from major power 'fomo'.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

I don't see them as being remotely the same.

what do you see is the difference then? other than the obvious passage of a longer period of time and its moderating influence

[2Stonedbirds]

Gonna be a sad day when the rockets start flying in from Brocket.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

Gonna be a sad day when the rockets start flying in from Brocket.

You bastard, I was taking a drink when I read this.

RIP keyboard

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

Gonna be a sad day when the rockets start flying in from Brocket.

Don't worry, we have done such an effective job of keeping compliant band leadership in most bands for a century or more I doubt you have to worry, of course giving them the right to vote back in 1960, well who knows where that will end up?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Worse for who, us? the rest of the region, the Saudi's? ARAMCO?

You might be right but can we stop pretending we give a bolloxs about democracy? we don't care, we put almost everything above democracy in this particular region.

We do almost nothing to prop up or bring down equally grim repugnant regimes in Africa (except Nigeria and Libya, purely coincidentally countries with large reserves of Oil), we havent invaded Mali or the Congo or Angola in a century, in fact the only attention we pay to Africa these days is because China has moved in there economically and we are now suffering from major power 'fomo'.

To the first. Yes. To all of it

Second, find where I said this was all about democracy. My opinion is straight forward, that your belief that it's all about oil is simplistic and lacks any nuance or thought that isn't a straight pull from a Zinn book. It's an entry level assertion. When you cling to such a cliched opinion, it's pretty hard to take you seriously.

Not even everything you're saying is explicitly "wrong", a lot of it is clearly factually correct. You're just using a small part of the picture and using it as the sole reason for decades of policy across an entire region. It's disingenuous and simplistic and it's blatantly so. So it's a little hard to take your stance with anything but an eyeroll.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Don't worry, we have done such an effective job of keeping compliant band leadership in most bands for a century or more I doubt you have to worry, of course giving them the right to vote back in 1960, well who knows where that will end up?

Oh man. It just keeps comin'.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

To the first. Yes. To all of it

Second, find where I said this was all about democracy. My opinion is straight forward, that your belief that it's all about oil is simplistic and lacks any nuance or thought that isn't a straight pull from a Zinn book. It's an entry level assertion. When you cling to such a cliched opinion, it's pretty hard to take you seriously.

Not even everything you're saying is explicitly "wrong", a lot of it is clearly factually correct. You're just using a small part of the picture and using it as the sole reason for decades of policy across an entire region. It's disingenuous and simplistic and it's blatantly so. So it's a little hard to take your stance with anything but an eyeroll.

So why exactly do you think we are there then? we gave up on S E Asia and Africa, even South and Central America in the 70's, what is it about the Middle east that we still feel the need to actively prop up Absolute Monarchs and brutal dictators in the name of democracy, even when they periodically cause terrorist attacks on us like 9/11?

[peter12]

Dude, who is this we you keep referring to?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

Dude, who is this we you keep referring to?

Europe and North America, Japan and Australia etc, you could argue the countries involved in the Gulf War, you remember the Gulf War don't you, that was when we decided we didn't like an undemocratic Country like Iraq invading another undemocratic Country like Kuwait a few years after we were fine with them invading another significantly more democratic Iran, none of which had any thing to do with Oil I guess.

[peter12]

So the whole lot. Wow.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

So why exactly do you think we are there then? we gave up on S E Asia and Africa, even South and Central America in the 70's, what is it about the Middle east that we still feel the need to actively prop up Absolute Monarchs and brutal dictators in the name of democracy, even when they periodically cause terrorist attacks on us like 9/11?

Because Israel is there and not in those other places?

The US dropped the atomic bomb on Japan and then totally abandoned Asia until the Korean War (UN forces)