63 Canadians killed after civilian airliner shot down.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by metallicat

It is outrageous that this happened. A country shot down a civilian aircraft and murdered 163 people. Totally unacceptable and there needs to be people paying for this. At this point I blame Trump and Iran equally. I also can't believe that this isn't the top news story in the world right now. It seems that once again the Americans don't care since it didn't happen to them.

It is 100% the Iranians' fault. I can see some shared responsibility for the Iranian missile strikes but this is something else entirely.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by peter12

It is 100% the Iranians' fault. I can see some shared responsibility for the Iranian missile strikes but this is something else entirely.

Does this happen without Trump's assassination to start the week?

[GGG]

I’m surprised there isn’t more blame at the feet of Trump.

He assassinated a leader of Iran. In war there are civilian casualties. Regardless of who is morally right innocent people died as a direct result of the US to intervene.

The human life cost of war always seems tragically undervalued.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by nik-

Or they just ####ed up. I mean that's more likely than turning to old equipment to counter the most advanced air force in the world because they were worried about their new gear getting broken.

The Tor M1 if that's what was used in this case while not the most advanced anti-aircraft weapon out there still has a lot of features that would prevent something like this would happen.


If I was going to theorize the battery commander ignored whatever the operator said in terms of the contact report or even the transponder code on his screen and made a snap decision to fire, into a civilian air corridor against a plane that was gaining altitude which isn't really matching any kind of attack profile out there unless its something like a lob shot, and that would not look like a civilian aircraft's altitude gain.


This is why I'm saying that Canada should be extremely demanding in getting answers, the Canadian Government and the Iranian Government owe that to the victims.



I expect that the Iranian's are taking a hammer and flame throwers to the Black Boxes as we sit here talking about it. But at this point it sounds like they're pretty sure that this was a shoot down, so I'm not sure that the black box is relevant.


Expect the Iranian's to scape goat and shoot some poor private or Lt to try to make everyone happy.

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by GGG

I’m surprised there isn’t more blame at the feet of Trump.

He assassinated a leader of Iran. In war there are civilian casualties. Regardless of who is morally right innocent people died as a direct result of the US to intervene.

The human life cost of war always seems tragically undervalued.

This isn't a bomb that missed and hit a school. It was, look there's a gigantic civilian aircraft, let's target it and shoot it down. Of course I blame Iran for pulling that trigger, but this goes back to Trump and his aggression in the region too.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by metallicat

This isn't a bomb that missed and hit a school. It was, look there's a gigantic civilian aircraft, let's target it and shoot it down. Of course I blame Iran for pulling that trigger, but this goes back to Trump and his aggression in the region too.

It wasn't even just "there's a civilian aircraft". It's "there's a civilian aircraft climbing out of our very own international airport". It's almost beyond belief.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by metallicat

It is outrageous that this happened. A country shot down a civilian aircraft and murdered 163 people. Totally unacceptable and there needs to be people paying for this. At this point I blame Trump and Iran equally. I also can't believe that this isn't the top news story in the world right now. It seems that once again the Americans don't care since it didn't happen to them.

Checking nytimes.com and theguardian.com/international the Ukrainian Air plane being shot down is the top story. So I think the story is getting its due coverage.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by peter12

You mean have POTUS fully acknowledge the mistake, call for a full investigation, and reaffirm their commitment to peace. You meant that right?

https://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/04/w...statement.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-054168d98c79/

Let's not let moral relativism totally get the better of us here.

To borrow your latter source:

On July 3, 1988, Iran Air Flight 655 was shot down by the U.S. military. The flight, a passenger jet that had originated in Tehran and had already stopped in Bandar Abbas, Iran, was flying over the Strait of Hormuz toward its destination, Dubai, when it was hit by two surface-to-air missiles.



Though Pentagon officials at first denied any knowledge of the incident, it soon emerged that the plane had been targeted by the USS Vincennes, a cruiser that had been involved in a skirmish with Iranian boats in the Persian Gulf and had mistaken the passenger jet for an Iranian warplane.



President Ronald Reagan expressed sympathy for the “terrible human tragedy” but suggested that the plane had “failed to heed repeated warnings.” However, an investigation by the International Civil Aviation Organization, a U.N. agency, found that U.S. military ships in the region did not have the equipment necessary to monitor civilian air-traffic-control frequencies.



Iran reached a settlement with the United States in 1996 after it sued in the International Court of Justice. The U.S. government refused to accept liability but agreed to pay $61.8 million to the families of victims.

As indicated, I hope that Iran will step up and ultimately do the right thing here, even if it takes a couple of days.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

You mean have POTUS fully acknowledge the mistake, call for a full investigation, and reaffirm their commitment to peace. You meant that right?

https://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/04/w...statement.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-054168d98c79/

Let's not let moral relativism totally get the better of us here.

I assumed he meant have your vice President claim that the Iranians started attacking the US first and that the shooting down of the airliner was therefore a response to an Iranian attack, only to have to admit a few weeks later the US started the attack and were in Iranian waters illegally when they shot the plane down.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by metallicat

This isn't a bomb that missed and hit a school. It was, look there's a gigantic civilian aircraft, let's target it and shoot it down. Of course I blame Iran for pulling that trigger, but this goes back to Trump and his aggression in the region too.

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I assumed he meant have your vice President claim that the Iranians started attacking the US first and that the shooting down of the airliner was therefore a response to an Iranian attack, only to have to admit a few weeks later the US started the attack and were in Iranian waters illegally when they shot the plane down.

The goalposts keep moving in your world.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

To borrow your latter source:

As indicated, I hope that Iran will step up and ultimately do the right thing here, even if it takes a couple of days.

Unreal. I just can't figure out how people choose to judge the two countries as being morally the same. Your original statement was wrong. You may quibble with the source, but it disproves your central point that American precedent was to deny anything had happened.

If the Americans had done what the Iranians have done, they would have blamed it on technical difficulties and then refused any outside investigation. Instead an international body was allowed to come to the proper conclusions.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

The goalposts keep moving in your world.

No, I am not excusing Iran, they effed up, they are to blame, as the Yanks were when they did the exact same thing.

There is no difference

[MoneyGuy]

^^I think it is the top story in the world right now.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by peter12

Unreal. I just can't figure out how people choose to judge the two countries as being morally the same. Your original statement was wrong. You may quibble with the source, but it disproves your central point that American precedent was to deny anything had happened.

If the Americans had done what the Iranians have done, they would have blamed it on technical difficulties and then refused any outside investigation. Instead an international body was allowed to come to the proper conclusions.

Except that denying anything had happened appears to have been exactly what the US initially did. Then they gave a goobered up explanation. Then they acknowledged what happened.


Iran is just at stage 2. It remains to be seen whether they'll make it all the way to acceptance, but I think it's just a matter of time.



Basically, as afc notes, it's essentially the same situation all over again. The big difference this time is that Iran basically shot itself in the foot and shares in the loss to a large extent.

[burn_this_city]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...nnocent-people

Good article on how the factors can all stack up causing a tragedy like this.

[Manhattanboy]

This is a heartbreaking tragedy.

Iran must be held accountable for this outrageous act.

Their denials are laughable.

[transplant99]

A spokesman for the Iranian government said reports that missiles downed the Ukraine International Airlines flight that crashed near Tehran Wednesday are "a big lie," state-run media reported.

The spokesman, Ali Rabiei, accused the United States of spreading misinformation about the crash, in which all 176 people on board were killed.

"No one will assume responsibility for such a big lie once it is known that the claim had been fraudulent," Rabiei said in a statement, according to Press TV.

"It is unfortunate that the psychological operation of the US government, and those supporting it knowingly and unknowingly, are adding insult to the injury of the bereaved families and victimizing them for certain goals by propagating such fallacies."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/10/middl...hnk/index.html

[Looch City]

God dammit this isn't helping

[PsYcNeT]

I honestly don't understand why anyone would think Tehran would fess up. They have no motivation to and control all evidence.

[Tsawwassen]

Uphill battle to recover remains

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canad...id=mailsignout