63 Canadians killed after civilian airliner shot down.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

They may have turned off their newer gear in order to preserve it and just used older kit they were prepared to lose, it may not have had IFF capabilities

If it came from a Tor M1 that's doubtful. Anti-Radiation missiles don't target the IFF they target the main search radar, if the main search radar is off, the Tor isn't activated, it doesn't have an infra red search.


A part of an open investigation is an interrogation of the battery crew.

[blankall]

Iran has definitely covered something up.

Confusing a jumbo passenger jet flying at low altitudes for a military craft shows some kind of serious incompetence if it was the Iranian government.



The place was traveling at below 10000 feet. Military drones fly at much higher heights and do not drop down into those low altitudes to strike.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by blankall

There are likely hundreds of flights taking off from this airport everyday. Why would an automated system take out this one? The crash also happened very close to the airport. It would seem like a very bad idea to have automated missile systems firing in that area. Also most US drones would fly far higher in the sky that the level this plane was shot down at.

One strange thing is that Iran was definitely making statements about mechanical failures and the plane turning around, before the more damning evidence came out. This suggests they may have been covering something up.

An automated system doesn't really work like that, the radar system can individually target multiple planes at a time, I believe its 4 for this system, but there's still a commander and a operator that identifies the targets and releases the battery. You don't want a fully automated system that doesn't have human over sight or even a IFF over site unless you want to start shooting down your own planes.



The Tor is modern enough that its radar would pick up the transponder code of the plane and identify it as a civilian air liner.



The Tor is also a low to medium range system, if the Plane was at I read about 6000 ft, that's about the range of the missile.



Again I'm not saying that this was some kind of nefarious intentional shoot down, but Iran has to come fully clean on how this incident happened, and fully open up the investigation, allow questioning of the battery crew and however commanded the air defense in that region and turn over the black boxes and voice recorders without apparent damage.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by peter12

Amazing the excuses people are making for the Iranian military right now. I'm pretty shocked at the leniency to be honest.

It's because of the US/Trump escalating the tensions with their recent actions.

But I do agree that Iran is not really getting much heat for this now that we know it was shot down by them. Mistake or not, that's a pretty big #### up since they've murdered over 170 innocent lives for no reason.

Canada's response may be in a bind here since their leverage is in a bind due to US and Iran, but there's no way Canada can let this go with a simple sorry. Iran has to pay for their grave mistake; beyond just financial compensation for the families that have lost loved ones from this tragedy.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by blankall

Iran has definitely covered something up.

Confusing a jumbo passenger jet flying at low altitudes for a military craft shows some kind of serious incompetence if it was the Iranian government.



The place was traveling at below 10000 feet. Military drones fly at much higher heights and do not drop down into those low altitudes to strike.

Its really hard to target and kill a civilian plane unless your really incompetent or deliberately targeting it.


If its visual a 737 does not look like a B1 Lancer or B-52 or stealth bomber.



the radar in most modern systems will display the transponder data right on the screen. The plane was also coming out of an airport on a normal flight plan, those corridors are pretty clearly marked.

[FlamesAddiction]

Iran was so quick to say they knew the cause that It was obvious that they were lying. Literally within a few hours of the crash they claimed it technical difficulties. As if an investigation into a plane crash can be that quick.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

Would you be making these same ludicrous excuses for the Americans? Unreal, lad.

I cant remember exactly what I posted back when USS Vincenes blew an Iranian Airliner out of the sky and killed hundreds of innocents but I am fairly sure I thought it was a terrible accident caused by the bellicose sword clashing between the US and Iran at the time.

[afc wimbledon]

Apparently Iran has now said it will allow NTSA and Boing to take part in the investigation

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

If it came from a Tor M1 that's doubtful. Anti-Radiation missiles don't target the IFF they target the main search radar, if the main search radar is off, the Tor isn't activated, it doesn't have an infra red search.


A part of an open investigation is an interrogation of the battery crew.

I'm guessing the Iranians, expecting a US response that they know they couldn't counter, and wishing to preserve as much capability as possible may have shut down much of their CnC and air defence, this may turn out to be some relic of the 60's they were keeping in reserve that they left operational as they could afford to lose.

[peter12]

So just to be clear, the Americans launch a precision strike against one the most murderous thugs and warlords in the Middle East and the Iranians shoot down an airliner full of Canadians because they got jumpy.

I'm going to go ahead and fully say this completely destroys any moral advantage the Iranians had until this point.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Its really hard to target and kill a civilian plane unless your really incompetent or deliberately targeting it.


If its visual a 737 does not look like a B1 Lancer or B-52 or stealth bomber.



the radar in most modern systems will display the transponder data right on the screen. The plane was also coming out of an airport on a normal flight plan, those corridors are pretty clearly marked.

I agree.

Even on "high alert" Iran has some explaining to do. I'd also like then to explain the blatant lies they reported before the video came out.

It would seem like silence would have been the best option, instead of providing details, that were likely to be overturned later, on how the place turned around and had mechanical failures.

Maybe I'm just giving these totalitarian governments too much credit. There's an image of them as James Bond villain masterminds, but they're probably more like Chernobyl style spokesman.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I'm guessing the Iranians, expecting a US response that they know they couldn't counter, and wishing to preserve as much capability as possible may have shut down much of their CnC and air defence, this may turn out to be some relic of the 60's they were keeping in reserve that they left operational as they could afford to lose.

Around their own airport? Come on. Stop with the excuses. As CC has said, there was still an officer commanding the battery.

Anyway, Fortress Iran, right?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I'm guessing the Iranians, expecting a US response that they know they couldn't counter, and wishing to preserve as much capability as possible may have shut down much of their CnC and air defence, this may turn out to be some relic of the 60's they were keeping in reserve that they left operational as they could afford to lose.

Or they just ####ed up. I mean that's more likely than turning to old equipment to counter the most advanced air force in the world because they were worried about their new gear getting broken.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by nik-

Or they just ####ed up. I mean that's more likely than turning to old equipment to counter the most advanced air force in the world because they were worried about their new gear getting broken.

####ed up is putting it very lightly. Overly aggressive, bellicose, and careless mismanagement at the least resulting in mass murder.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by blankall

I agree.

Even on "high alert" Iran has some explaining to do. I'd also like then to explain the blatant lies they reported before the video came out.

It would seem like silence would have been the best option, instead of providing details, that were likely to be overturned later, on how the place turned around and had mechanical failures.

Maybe I'm just giving these totalitarian governments too much credit. There's an image of them as James Bond villain masterminds, but they're probably more like Chernobyl style spokesman.

One could argue they simply borrowed a page from the Yanks on how to respond to mistakenly shooting down a civilian aircraft.

My guess though is that it's a case of deny until you know for sure, since it's a massive screw up and an international embarrassment. Hopefully they acknowledge what happened and work through it with the other governments affected. Hopefully.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by peter12

So just to be clear, the Americans launch a precision strike against one the most murderous thugs and warlords in the Middle East and the Iranians shoot down an airliner full of Canadians because they got jumpy.

I'm going to go ahead and fully say this completely destroys any moral advantage the Iranians had until this point.

Of course it does. But the difference between them doing it on purpose vs. By accident is huge. It doesn’t change that they are responsible and will face consequences. But the consequences change.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

One could argue they simply borrowed a page from the Yanks on how to respond to mistakenly shooting down a civilian aircraft.

My guess though is that it's a case of deny until you know for sure, since it's a massive screw up and an international embarrassment. Hopefully they acknowledge what happened and work through it with the other governments affected. Hopefully.

You mean have POTUS fully acknowledge the mistake, call for a full investigation, and reaffirm their commitment to peace. You meant that right?

https://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/04/w...statement.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-054168d98c79/

Let's not let moral relativism totally get the better of us here.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by peter12

Amazing the excuses people are making for the Iranian military right now. I'm pretty shocked at the leniency to be honest.

There’s a difference between understanding something and then excusing it. This act is not excusable, at best it’s criminal incompetence both for the chain of command that caused the missiles to be fired, and for higher ups for not closing the air space in a war scenario.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by edslunch

There’s a difference between understanding something and then excusing it. This act is not excusable, at best it’s criminal incompetence both for the chain of command that caused the missiles to be fired, and for higher ups for not closing the air space in a war scenario.

This comment is different in tone and intent than the posts I was referring to.

[metallicat]

It is outrageous that this happened. A country shot down a civilian aircraft and murdered 163 people. Totally unacceptable and there needs to be people paying for this. At this point I blame Trump and Iran equally. I also can't believe that this isn't the top news story in the world right now. It seems that once again the Americans don't care since it didn't happen to them.