63 Canadians killed after civilian airliner shot down.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

We're just an incidental casualty of Trump's need to distract from his impeachment and Iran's desire to sabre-rattle.

Not that I support Trump's actions in anyway or those of the Iranian regime, but we don't know enough about what actually happened yet.

What kind of missile was it? Who fired the missile? Was the missile fired from a station put on altered or high alert? etc...

[Red Slinger]

At most we may see an apology.

I can't help but think that this wouldn't have happened if not for the inflamed tensions in Iran at the moment. Tensions that were escalated (some might even argue concocted) by the US government. I'm not suggesting that the US is responsible for this tragedy but I think they did influence it. Under 'normal' circumstances we would be shocked that Iran blasted a passenger jet out of the sky. As of right now, it didn't come as that much of a surprise. Even when there isn't a hot war or the combatants use strategic targeting, human nature often intervenes and we are left with sad cases like this. It should be a reminder that saber-rattling and chest thumping can carry a heavy price.

[Flashpoint]

Donald Trump needed to undo Obama's Iran policy. Cause it was Obama!

This is the result.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

At most we may see an apology.

I can't help but think that this wouldn't have happened if not for the inflamed tensions in Iran at the moment. Tensions that were escalated (some might even argue concocted) by the US government. I'm not suggesting that the US is responsible for this tragedy but I think they did influence it. Under 'normal' circumstances we would be shocked that Iran blasted a passenger jet out of the sky. As of right now, it didn't come as that much of a surprise. Even when there isn't a hot war or the combatants use strategic targeting, human nature often intervenes and we are left with sad cases like this. It should be a reminder that saber-rattling and chest thumping can carry a heavy price.

I don't know what that says about you, but I was pretty fataing surprised!

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by you&me

Seems a tad random...

"I'm just going to go out for a smoke and video this exact spot in the otherwise black night sky"...

I suspect more a case of 'holy crap we just attacked the US, I bet we're going to get droned pretty quick for that, what's that light in the sky? crap I'd better get my phone out, world star hip hop here I come'.

[Huntingwhale]

Jesus that video us surreal. Now that there is clear cut proof, the Iranian government just needs to come out and own this. Don't pull a Russia and try to wait this out so it goes away. Sack up and admit what happened.

Terrible incident but I really think they didn't know it was a passenger plane given the events that were unfolding. It was a mistake, but a horrible horrible mistake with dire consequences. Admit to it.

[flylock shox]

This looks increasingly like a tragedy shared - primarily - among Iran, Ukraine, and Canada.

I don't expect the circumstances are ripe for recriminations given that, at the time this happened, the US and Iran were effectively at war. Hopefully this can lead to some relationship building between Iran and Canada since both should mourn these losses.

[FlameOn]

The Tor missile system that fired the SA-15s likely used to down the airliner may have been set to automatically respond to threats. Given the high alert of the Iranian military from US drone attacks and their own missile launches, its entirely possible someone just forget to turn the thing off. Plane also took off an hour later than scheduled so that could have factored into a miscommunication between military and civilian aviation authorities. Looking more and more like a tragic accident.

The New York Times and NBC News have both cited US officials as saying that data from satellite footage and other intelligence suggests that at least one Iranian missile was fired accidentally at the 737. [Update, 4:30 PM EST: It is now reported that two missiles were fired.]

Iran's air defenses include a number of Russian-manufactured long-range and short-range systems, including 29 Tor-M1 (SA-15 Gauntlet) mobile surface-to-air missile defense systems purchased in 2005. In 2016, after delays related to United Nations sanctions, Russia delivered the S-300 missile system to Iran—the predecessor to the S-400 system Russia has sold Turkey.

The SA-15 is likely the weapon involved in this case. Used for short- to medium-range defense, it is intended for targets at medium to very low altitude and has a maximum range of 15.5 miles. The Tor missile system launches missiles in pairs. The system may have been set to automatically respond to threats.

Tragically, this would not be the first time a civilian airliner has been shot down due to heightened tensions between the United States and Iran. In 1989, the USS Vincennes—an Aegis missile cruiser in the Persian Gulf during the confrontation with Iran known as Operation Earnest Will—mistakenly shot down Iran Air Flight 655, a scheduled civilian flight from Tehran to Dubai via Bandar Abbas. Two hundred and ninety people were killed.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...officials-say/

[CaptainCrunch]

I have some trouble with that explanation. The radar system on the Tor-M1 is fairly modern and has a modern IFF installed in it. It would have paid attention to the Transponder reply when it painted the aircraft. When they talk autonomous, the Tor still requires a operator and there is a battery commander, so someone is looking at the radar screen.



If Iran wants any kind of reproachment at this point they need to give Canadian's unfettered and unconditional access to the investigation, black box and voice recorders, and a proper investigation of the men and commanders to that battery. There also needs to be compensation to the families and a proper apology by Iran.



Canada also needs to take this to the UN this was a slaughter of innocent Canadians on an airliner in what is probably a designated flight zone with a civilian transponder to identify it.


If Iran doesn't comply there can't be any steps towards a relationship.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by MillerTime GFG

I'm no Trudeau supporter, but man...can you imagine the weight on his shoulders right now? How do you deal with this as the leader of a non-military power country such as Canada? How do you represent these families appropriately?

From a human standpoint, I cannot imagine the stress he must be under. I do not envy him. I'm so curious to see how he/we proceed here.

Most Canadians know that military options are a non-starter.

But you make a good point. Regardless of why it happened, it was an attack on Canadian citizens. Hard to see a good way to deal with it.

[Azure]

What are the chances that factions within the military launched without authorization?

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I have some trouble with that explanation. The radar system on the Tor-M1 is fairly modern and has a modern IFF installed in it. It would have paid attention to the Transponder reply when it painted the aircraft. When they talk autonomous, the Tor still requires a operator and there is a battery commander, so someone is looking at the radar screen.



If Iran wants any kind of reproachment at this point they need to give Canadian's unfettered and unconditional access to the investigation, black box and voice recorders, and a proper investigation of the men and commanders to that battery. There also needs to be compensation to the families and a proper apology by Iran.



Canada also needs to take this to the UN this was a slaughter of innocent Canadians on an airliner in what is probably a designated flight zone with a civilian transponder to identify it.


If Iran doesn't comply there can't be any steps towards a relationship.

I would love to see a bilateral and constructive resolution of the kind you outlined in this paragraph.

Collaboration with Iran with respect to this tragedy could result in something positive coming from the deaths of all these poor people. But Iran's going to have to come out with the truth soon for that to happen. I suspect and hope they will.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by Azure

What are the chances that factions within the military launched without authorization?

What do they have to gain exactly...?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Azure

What are the chances that factions within the military launched without authorization?

by accident? very high, it probably transpires they were put on triple extra code red high alert for US incursions, then saw a blip on their screen, my guess is they couldn't reach the higher ups, probably hundreds of alerts that night as they were freaking out expecting death to reign down on them at any minute, system bogs down etc etc

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I have some trouble with that explanation. The radar system on the Tor-M1 is fairly modern and has a modern IFF installed in it. It would have paid attention to the Transponder reply when it painted the aircraft. When they talk autonomous, the Tor still requires a operator and there is a battery commander, so someone is looking at the radar screen.



If Iran wants any kind of reproachment at this point they need to give Canadian's unfettered and unconditional access to the investigation, black box and voice recorders, and a proper investigation of the men and commanders to that battery. There also needs to be compensation to the families and a proper apology by Iran.



Canada also needs to take this to the UN this was a slaughter of innocent Canadians on an airliner in what is probably a designated flight zone with a civilian transponder to identify it.


If Iran doesn't comply there can't be any steps towards a relationship.

They may have turned off their newer gear in order to preserve it and just used older kit they were prepared to lose, it may not have had IFF capabilities

[manwiches]

I'm watching the National special on it from last night, and the interview with the fellow who's wife and daughter died. He's handling it with such grace, but it is utterly devastating. My son just asked me why I was crying, and all I could think of was what if I were to lose my wife and son so suddenly....

I don't know how I'd continue. This is horrible and heartbreaking.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

[blankall]

There are likely hundreds of flights taking off from this airport everyday. Why would an automated system take out this one? The crash also happened very close to the airport. It would seem like a very bad idea to have automated missile systems firing in that area. Also most US drones would fly far higher in the sky that the level this plane was shot down at.

One strange thing is that Iran was definitely making statements about mechanical failures and the plane turning around, before the more damning evidence came out. This suggests they may have been covering something up.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by blankall

There are likely hundreds of flights taking off from this airport everyday. Why would an automated system take out this one? The crash also happened very close to the airport. It would seem like a very bad idea to have automated missile systems firing in that area. Also most US drones would fly far higher in the sky that the level this plane was shot down at.

One strange thing is that Iran was definitely making statements about mechanical failures and the plane turning around, before the more damning evidence came out. This suggests they may have been covering something up.

There aren't that many - it seems to be a secondary airport for Tehran. The flight took off more that 30 minutes after the next previous one (due to delays)

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/st...23668198744067

[peter12]

Amazing the excuses people are making for the Iranian military right now. I'm pretty shocked at the leniency to be honest.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

They may have turned off their newer gear in order to preserve it and just used older kit they were prepared to lose, it may not have had IFF capabilities

Would you be making these same ludicrous excuses for the Americans? Unreal, lad.