[Trade] Hall (50% ret), Speers to ARI for 1st, cond 3rd, Merkley, Schnarr, Bahl

[Kovaz]

The biggest difference between Arizona and Calgary this season is just goaltending.

Kuemper and Raanta combine for +23 GSAA (Goals saved above average). Rittich and Talbot combine for +3. So they're 20 goals ahead of us just based on goaltending, which is worth about 6 wins or 12 points. And they're only 4 points ahead of us in the standings.

Is Darcy Kuemper really the best goalie in the league? The Arizona > Calgary argument pretty much begins and ends there.

[Phaneuf_Phan]

No, AZ is all about team defence which show up in goalie stats. The players put their egos aside and care about winning more than personal scoring stats. Balanced scoring throughout their lineup.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf_Phan

No, AZ is all about team defence which show up in goalie stats. The players put their egos aside and care about winning more than personal scoring stats. Balanced scoring throughout their lineup.

Yet they only have a slightly better record despite a disastrous start for many of Calgary's top players

[Poe969]

Arguing who's better between the Flames and coyotes seems like arguing about who is 15th overall and who is 16th overall. One may be better than the other but neither are good enough to matter.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by dino7c

You are always negative...You are the anti-homer how can we take you seriously.

Calgary is 8-2-1 in their last 11 games. Brag about your awesome predictions at the end of the season not in December.

For sure Arizona is better than Calgary? based on what? a few points in the standings while the Flames top players had ridiculously terrible stars

Why use the last 11 games to decide how good a team is? Maybe we should use the last 20 games? Or the last 2 games?

It’s hard not to be a little skeptical but I sure hope you are right.

[Flamenspiel]

I think the who is better discussion is a moot point. It’s clear that the better play on Hall (if at all) should be after the season when there is no acquisition cost. At that point management has to consider the whole lineup and long term direction of the team. Arizona is very much all in like Columbus last year, I believe unwisely because Columbus was much closer to a cup winning team.

A team bringing in an older Phil Kessel and a one dimensional player like Hall is no longer a data driven team, quite obviously the owner has lost patience and wants some success now.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

A team bringing in an older Phil Kessel and a one dimensional player like Hall is no longer a data driven team, quite obviously the owner has lost patience and wants some success now.

Hall is not a one dimensional player.

He drives a lines offense. The only forward that Calgary has that really drives offense is Johnny.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I think the who is better discussion is a moot point. It’s clear that the better play on Hall (if at all) should be after the season when there is no acquisition cost. At that point management has to consider the whole lineup and long term direction of the team. Arizona is very much all in like Columbus last year, I believe unwisely because Columbus was much closer to a cup winning team.

A team bringing in an older Phil Kessel and a one dimensional player like Hall is no longer a data driven team, quite obviously the owner has lost patience and wants some success now.

No acquisition cost, but a huge price tag in both $'s and term.

Flames are in a tough spot. Not a lot of cap room to add players, but not a lot of surplus prospects or picks to trade for rentals.

Losing Frolik and Jankowski next year will help, as that $6 million can be replaced by guys making near the minimum. But we will still have Brouwer, Stone and Lucic counting $8 million against the cap and only two defensemen under contract (plus Valimaki).

The next six months are going to be interesting. Some big decisions ahead it seems.

[GioforPM]

I've been on this board a long time and I still don't know what various people mean when they say a player "drives offence". If it just means "carries the puck into the offensive zone", then lots do, including on the Flames.

[bax]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I've been on this board a long time and I still don't know what various people mean when they say a player "drives offence". If it just means "carries the puck into the offensive zone", then lots do, including on the Flames.

There’s a few different ways to interpret it, but generally I’ve always understood it is a combination of a few things:

Primary point percentage. Secondary assists fluctuate for players season by season and generally are a random stat relying on circumstance. A player with many goals and primary assists is a guy that drives the offense and creates goals.

Another measure is how often a player is on the ice when his team scores versus how often they score when he is not on the ice.

If you want to go even more in depth you can look at a players shot generation and see how often scoring chances from high danger areas are coming off his stick.

Another good measure is passes to the slot. A guy like Gaudreau completes tons of passes into the slot which more often than not creates a scoring chance.

In general, players that drive offense are essentially the guys responsible for creating the most scoring opportunities on their team.

[GioforPM]

[QUOTE=bax;7312955]

Frankly, I've usually seen it used to denigrate guys that produce a lot but aren't dangly.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Arguing who's better between the Flames and coyotes seems like arguing about who is 15th overall and who is 16th overall. One may be better than the other but neither are good enough to matter.

Two of the most cursed teams in NHL history.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by Jordan!

Two of the most cursed teams in NHL history.

Huh? How do you figure?

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by Flacker

Huh? How do you figure?

-The overall inability to 1) Make the playoffs 2) Get past the 1st round
-Nearly relocated (The Flames saga was definitely much shorter, 2004 saved that team) Coyotes will move without a new arena in the East Valley

The general lack of success to years in the league basically

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I think he will go to the team that he thinks gives him the best chance to win while paying him fair market value for a top line winger (8-9M 7 year deal).

I think there will be teams other than the Flames that will be able to offer that.


If there is any truth to the rumblings Hall would like to play here then I do think the Flames should consider moving a guy like Gaudreau for some high end futures and then bring Hall in with that cap space.

Flames could net a very high end prospect or top 10 pick + for Johnny

8-9 million? That’s crazy talk. He’ll get 10+ on the open market I’d imagine.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by Jordan!

-The overall inability to 1) Make the playoffs 2) Get past the 1st round
-Nearly relocated (The Flames saga was definitely much shorter, 2004 saved that team) Coyotes will move without a new arena in the East Valley

The general lack of success to years in the league basically

The Flames have never "nearly relocated", the Flames have appeared in the SCF three times, winning the cup in 1989. Please don't lump us in with your sad sack franchise.

Also, the Coyotes are no where near the top of the list of "cursed" franchises, the leafs haven't won a cup since 1967. The Coyotes are irrelevant, yes, but they aren't cursed.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Flacker

The Flames have never "nearly relocated", the Flames have appeared in the SCF three times, winning the cup in 1989. Please don't lump us in with your sad sack franchise.

Also, the Coyotes are no where near the top of the list of "cursed" franchises, the leafs haven't won a cup since 1967. The Coyotes are irrelevant, yes, but they aren't cursed.

Flames have made the finals 3 times

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Flames have made the finals 3 times

Ninja edited, noticed right after I posted.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf_Phan

No, AZ is all about team defence which show up in goalie stats. The players put their egos aside and care about winning more than personal scoring stats. Balanced scoring throughout their lineup.

Nope.

https://theathletic.com/1473154/2019...shooting-wild/

While the Coyotes lead the Pacific division, there’s an over-reliance on team goaltending that makes that position precarious. Arizona is first in five-on-five and all-situations save percentage and while that’s to be expected from the team’s excellent tandem, it’s still difficult to count on it to this degree.

Before the trade, Arizona’s projected win percentage going forward was 0.473, suggesting the team likely wasn’t as good as its record and was closer to below average. With Hall, that’s jumped up to 0.504 and his presence should mitigate some of the potential regression that may have come the team’s way.

They have been way too reliant on goaltending that is probably not sustainable as they have been a below average team to date riding incredibly hot goaltending.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

8-9 million? That’s crazy talk. He’ll get 10+ on the open market I’d imagine.

IMO it's a pretty tough one to predict. I'm not sure that many teams will be tripping over themselves to overpay Hall...at least not for 7 years (of course it only ever takes the perception of 2 teams to drive the price up).

Hall is the same age as Panarin (allegedly), signing one year later. 6 months older than Stone.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of GMs view age 26 and 27 differently than 28 or 29. Only 5 guys have signed age 28 or later for > 8.5M: Karlsson, Doughty, Price, Kopitar, Bobrovsky (all five were actually 10M+, only Bob changed teams). Bobby Ryan, JVR, and Pacioretty (4x7, signed a year early and taking effect as he turned 31) are the highest paid wingers (7-7.25).

Even going back to age 26-27 guys, there aren't many comps (pure wingers). Panarin, P Kane, Stone, Kucherov, Benn, Skinner, Parise, E Kane.

So the only wingers who have changed teams as UFAs are Panarin, JVR, and Parise (old rules)...

If history is any indication, Hall will end up signing a bad deal (for them) with the Yotes due to sunk cost fallacy.