It was explained, but doesn't mean we buy into Luke Skywalker, the guy who walked into certain death to insist upon a goodness that may or may not have still existed in his father, ending up that way because of what happened there from his perspective.
Bold, but not true to the character, imo. The Luke we got to know in the three previous movies would not have dwelled upon that to the point of being driven into recluse life cut off from the force and denouncing it. Maybe someone else (in which case it might've been interesting), but not Luke.
That's the thing. It's such a farcry from the character we knew that its simply hard to believe, without following more of his descent into that place to make it more believable. It's just too much of heel turn to work for a lot of people.
Last edited by djsFlames; 12-19-2019 at 12:02 AM.
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I will never begrudge or argue with a person who says hey, I liked TLJ, because movie opinions like art is in the eye of the beholder. I don't see a banana taped to the wall as art, but some people do, and I would never call them stupid.
For me, TLJ had way more flawed or badly written moments then it did oh my god moments.
Going back to the Original Trilogy, and especially ESB what they did really well is that they established a strong credible set of villains. Lets face it at the end of ANH everyone would have thought that the Empire having lost their ultimate weapon would be reeling, they lost a guy who was portrayed as an extremely ruthless and effective Commander in Grand Moff Tarkin. Yet right at the start of the next movie. We see that the Empire hasn't taken a step back, they're not shell shocked. We see a massive Star Fleet, we lose the incompetent commander in Ozzel right off of the start and his replacement Piett seems to be competent.
The enemy does smart things in this movie. They hire bounty hunters to track down the enemy. They send bombers in to flush out the Falcon, they get to cloud city ahead of Solo. They kick the crap out of the Rebellion right off of the start. Everything about the Empire in that movie is frightening and real and you get a sense that its only a matter of time. They have the resources, the soldiers, Vader in command and they don't do anything that you would judge as stupid.
Again everything about the First Order and even Ren in the TLJ just seems to be keystone cop levels of stupidity. Its funny because they tried to establish Hux as somewhat competent in the first movie, in the second one they basically made him into an idiot, a sucker for your momma jokes, who's dragged around the floor by Snoke because laughs I guess. His strategy of calling back fighters because they can't cover them even though the Rebel Fleet can't launch fighters. Followed by the really silly slow chase which I guess was supposed to replicate the asteroid field chase of ESB, was just awkward and silly. It was funny because even the commander of the dreadnought basically called Hux an idiot for not launching fighters.
To me and its my opinion, it just seems that without an over arching creative force controlling the storyline, the TLJ just felt like it wasn't even part of the trilogy. And it felt like Rian was just throwing things at the wall hoping to get a wooo from the audience.
Instead we get the red shirting of Snoke. We have the stupid slow bombers crawling their way towards the enemy fleet, which screams who thought of this strategy, and who designed these bombers, which I get is some kind of salute to WW2, but they were just a bad idea when in every other movie the Rebel's primary strike bombers. The Y-Wing, the B-Wing and even the ARC-170's were fairly quick and nimble.
They tried to advance Ren through the movie as a credible threat and then used him for the setup of a cringe worthy temper tantrum near the end when he had everyone fire on Luke, and clearly Hux worried about his laser bolt budget screams that basically Luke had enough.
We had the really bad Rose and Finn adventure with a betrayal that you could see right from the start.
To me, Rian either didn't watch the first movie and had no idea of the source material, or he just didn't care about the first movie or the concluding movie and made a stand alone really weird Star Wars movie.
In ESB at the end even though there is some reason for optimism and weirdness as Lando is wearing Hans clothes. The over all sense is that the Empire was truly ascendant and you wanted to see the next movie to see how Luke and the Rebels were dealing with such a pasting.
With the end of TLJ. I didn't feel that jeopardy. The big bad was dead. the FO fleet including the Supremecy which doubles as the FO's main base and manufacturing facility is destroyed. the FO is being ruled by a guy with serious maturity issues Rey's parents were drunks, Luke was dead but up until that point he wasn't part of the war.
On the rebel side, Rey had become really over powered. I still cringe at the Falcon returning to battle and basically destroying 10 tie fighters with one shot (it felt with that ) probably because Rian thought it would look cool, but once again it made the FO look like boobs.
I have this funny feeling that the reason that they bought Palpatine back and it was never in the original plan was because JJ looked at the mess that Rian had made of the main villain and decided that the only way to make the next movie interesting was to bring back Palpatine who's a very interesting character and establish a bigger bad then the FO as a threat, thus removing Hux who we haven't seen in any previews and the terrible FO as a threat. Now we get Palpatine and this massive fleet of Star Destroyers. Again in the previews we see very little of anything first order related
Look JJ is no dummy, I'm pretty sure that he looked at what TLJ had done to the story line and he figured the quickest fix is a new and more potent enemy that they don't need to spend a lot of time establishing, and a really credible Big Bad, because Ren just isn't that.
Just my 2 cents.
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Last edited by CaptainCrunch; 12-19-2019 at 12:03 AM.
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It was explained, but doesn't mean we buy into Luke Skywalker, the guy who walked into certain death to insist upon a goodness that may or may not have still existed in his father, ending up that way because of what happened there from his perspective.
Bold, but not true to the character, imo. The Luke we got to know in the three previous movies would not have dwelled upon that to the point of being driven into recluse life cut off from the force and denouncing it. Maybe someone else (in which case it might've been interesting), but not Luke.
That’s a fair argument but even then if that’s true then I think this is where I actually fault JJ more than Rian though.
JJ was the one who set up Luke as the recluse who was not around in TFA.
Rian had to come up with some reason to explain that and I think he did a good job of that.
He kind of follows the OT story, even if it’s a bit more aggressive in tone. Luke’s following in his mentors footsteps. Yoda was a recluse who went into hiding in Dagobah, and at first refused to train Luke because of the fear he had of repeating the mistakes that led to Anakin turning to the dark side.
Luke has those same fears here with Rey, and knowing that he failed Kylo. As for Luke giving up on Kylo I think they tried to explain that in the vision, with Luke saying he had never seen so much darkness in one individual before and he took responsibility for that.
Remember the insinuation here is that Kylo also slaughtered the rest of the young Jedi, so that would be weighing heavily on Luke.
The only real difference here is that at the time of Yodas introduction in the OT nobody had a clue who he was, except for the crazy animal in the swamp.
Luke didn’t try and kill Kylo. I’m surprised at how many people didn’t get that whole backstory. We saw that scene from two perspectives and according to Luke he considered it for a nanosecond. Then Kylo was just a victim in Luke’s eyes and he felt he’d failed as a master. Then Kylo attacked Luke. It was only in Kylo’s (presumably false) version did Luke try and kill him.
You may not have liked why he was a deranged hobo but it’s not like it came out of left field. Did people really think he was exiled because he wanted a 20 year vacation on the other side of the galaxy? It was hinted at strongly in TFA and clearly explained in TLJ.
Also the throne room fight scene has been hailed as one of the best battles of any Star Wars film.
We still don’t know Rey’s lineage. Just because her enemy Kylo said it, doesn’t make it true. He has motive to try and make her lose hope. He already lied to her about a Luke trying to assassinate him. I’ve never understood why a known liar and bad guy was just taken at face value by fans.
You’re right. He didn’t try to kill him. I haven’t seen the movie since it came out on Blu Ray a year and a half ago so I’m a tad rusty. I forgot that they told that story twice (once from each perspective) and that from Luke’s perspective he wasn’t going to kill him. My apologies. I’d still argue that Luke even considering killing him was a ridiculous choice but we’ll leave it at that.
The Throne Room scene is divisive. On one hand I remember watching it and loving it on first viewing. On the other, I’ve watched several YouTube videos breaking down the fight and pointing out the flaws (random spins, Rey kicking three guards at once, the disappearing dagger, etc) and now I can’t un-see them and the scene is ruined for me.
On the rebel side, Rey had become really over powered. I still cringe at the Falcon returning to battle and basically destroying 10 tie fighters with one shot (it felt with that ) probably because Rian thought it would look cool, but once again it made the FO look like boobs.
The entire Resistance has been whittled down to a couple dozen stragglers that can all fit inside the Falcon, but Rey's having a jolly old time blowing up TIEs while screaming "woo! I like this!!" and getting a meet cute with Poe. also, her ability to telekinesis thousands of tons effortlessly should mean she could rip Palpatine to shreds with a flick of her pinkie, but I can sure as hell bet that will be as forgotten as hyperspace ramming going forward.
Going back to the Original Trilogy, and especially ESB what they did really well is that they established a strong credible set of villains.
Screen/novel writing 101: A story is only as strong as its antagonist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
In ESB at the end even though there is some reason for optimism and weirdness as Lando is wearing Hans clothes. The over all sense is that the Empire was truly ascendant and you wanted to see the next movie to see how Luke and the Rebels were dealing with such a pasting.
Again, archetypal storytelling structure. Things are darkest at the end of the second act, when the protagonists are in the belly of the whale and have no clear way out.
The plot of A New Hope was classic, almost paint-by-numbers hero's journey. Which isn't surprising, as Lucas studied Joseph Campbell's teachings as he was creating it.
Empire Strikes Back was written by Leigh Brackett, a highly experienced SF genre author and screenwriter.
The subsequent movies have been written by a George Lucas drunk on hubris, or a committee of corporate overseers and hired hands with clashing visions. The scripts they've created have been at once both over-complicated and cliche-ridden schlock.
It really is remarkable how the enthusiasm for two films has propelled the franchise for decades.
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Screen/novel writing 101: A story is only as strong as its antagonist.
Again, archetypal storytelling structure. Things are darkest at the end of the second act, when the protagonists are in the belly of the whale and have no clear way out.
The plot of A New Hope was classic, almost paint-by-numbers hero's journey. Which isn't surprising, as Lucas studied Joseph Campbell's teachings as he was creating it.
Empire Strikes Back was written by Leigh Brackett, a highly experienced SF genre author and screenwriter.
The subsequent movies have been written by a George Lucas drunk on hubris, or a committee of corporate overseers and hired hands with clashing visions. The scripts they've created have been at once both over-complicated and cliche-ridden schlock.
It really is remarkable how the enthusiasm for two films has propelled the franchise for decades.
I think ROTJ has a worse reputation that it actually is of a film. Yes, the Ewoks, in retrospect, are silly.
In terms of a pure adventure movie, it belongs up there with movies like the original Indiana Jones movies. The sense of pacing and adventure is incredible.
There was nothing ground breaking about the plot, and it essentially just knocked down the dominos that had been set up in the first two movies, but the overall execution was great. So many great scenes: Jabba's palace, throne room, Sarlacc pit, removing Darth Vader's helmet, etc...
It was a sequel that basically followed the classic formula of one upping the prior movies, but the execution was amazing.
Part of the genius of the original trilogy was the pacing among the movies. They manage to wrap up, what could have been a meandering mess, into a total story.
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I've enjoyed these new flicks for the most part, but I think Disney needs to take at least a 10 year break from doing any more SW movies or trilogies. Just continue with television for a while and build the brand back up again. Mandalorian is a lot of fun, so I hope they continue that series. The Obi-Wan series with Ewan MacGregor also sounds promising.
Then maybe come back in a few years time, hand the reins to someone like Jon Favreau or Kevin Feige and come up with a brand new story for a new trilogy or cinematic universe, with new characters, planets, ships, etc... Just give it a clean slate and come up with something totally fresh and original within that universe (again, the Mandalorian is doing a pretty solid job of this so far).
Granted, Star Wars fans will never be completely happy with anything and will still nit-pick it to death, but at least the filmmakers won't be shackled to the Skywalker saga any longer and can move on with something different.
In terms of a pure adventure movie, it belongs up there with movies like the original Indiana Jones movies. The sense of pacing and adventure is incredible.
Lando and Wedge's attack on the Death Star reactor is one of the most technically astonishing and thrilling sequences ever put to film. it might be my favorite Star Wars action set piece across all 10 movies released so far.
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I've enjoyed these new flicks for the most part, but I think Disney needs to take at least a 10 year break from doing any more SW movies or trilogies. Just continue with television for a while and build the brand back up again. Mandalorian is a lot of fun, so I hope they continue that series. The Obi-Wan series with Ewan MacGregor also sounds promising.
Then maybe come back in a few years time, hand the reins to someone like Jon Favreau or Kevin Feige and come up with a brand new story for a new trilogy or cinematic universe, with new characters, planets, ships, etc... Just give it a clean slate and come up with something totally fresh and original within that universe (again, the Mandalorian is doing a pretty solid job of this so far).
Granted, Star Wars fans will never be completely happy with anything and will still nit-pick it to death, but at least the filmmakers won't be shackled to the Skywalker saga any longer and can move on with something different.
Naw...they just have to make things more Rogue One less TLJ.
Lando and Wedge's attack on the Death Star reactor is one of the most technically astonishing and thrilling sequences ever put to film. it might be my favorite Star Wars action set piece across all 10 movies released so far.
The fact that they had that scene working simultaneously with Luke in the throne room and the Endor surface scene, then all 3 scenes merge to a conclusion was amazing. It never felt like they were jumping around, with each of the three totally different scenes totally fleshed out and working towards one all encompassing conclusion.
The ending to the ROTJ is a true accomplishment of film making that gets horribly underrated due to the legacy of the Ewoks. I don't even find the Ewok battle itself that over the top. All they did was distract the guards long enough for the rest of the plan to work. If you rewatch the scene, most of their attacks were pretty ineffective and more of nuisance than anything.
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Yup, I'll still watch it and be all "you gotta shut down the shields! Faster! They are never gonna make it!" Even thoguh I know they do. It's really well done.
Lando and Wedge's attack on the Death Star reactor is one of the most technically astonishing and thrilling sequences ever put to film. it might be my favorite Star Wars action set piece across all 10 movies released so far.
ROTJ is awesome, it was always my favorite as a kid and when I got older I was baffled to learn that a lot of people didn't like it and thought it was the worst. That last scene is absolute movie magic. Even watching it now I can't believe they made it in 1983 pre-CGI.
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The 4 main character arcs are still very similar to the OT overall IMO
Rey = Luke
Poe = Leia
Finn = Han
Kylo = Vader
I'm haven't been trying to say TLJ is one of the all time great movies, but it really blows my mind how much some people hate it. The Rey, Luke, and Kylo alone where just so strong it should have carried the movie, and to the extent you are coming to complain about cheesy overpowered characters or plot holes (welcome to the star wars franchise).
But one thing has stood out to me in this trilogy in general.
Leia = Rey
Luke = Rey
Han = Rey
I think this is really the problem with the plot direction of the other characters.
Rey is the worldly hot shot,
Rey is the chosen hero,
Rey is the danzel in distress.
Rey Rey Rey Rey, why do we even care about these Fin and Poe side shows. I like the Rey character. But the rest of them are a bunch of side kicks, so when the camera is on them the story is derailed.
I'm haven't been trying to say TLJ is one of the all time great movies, but it really blows my mind how much some people hate it. The Rey, Luke, and Kylo alone where just so strong it should have carried the movie, and to the extent you are coming to complain about cheesy overpowered characters or plot holes (welcome to the star wars franchise).
But one thing has stood out to me in this trilogy in general.
Leia = Rey
Luke = Rey
Han = Rey
I think this is really the problem with the plot direction of the other characters.
Rey is the worldly hot shot,
Rey is the chosen hero,
Rey is the danzel in distress.
Rey Rey Rey Rey, why do we even care about these Fin and Poe side shows. I like the Rey character. But the rest of them are a bunch of side kicks, so when the camera is on them the story is derailed.
That opening prank call scene should pretty much do it for ya.
