One of my favorite films has a 20% on RT I believe. The rating doesn't mean a ton if it hits for you, but we'll see. Sometimes what the big critics consider to be "good" or "skilled" filmmaking also isn't a very entertaining or satisfying experience. And then what they call a mess is also a lot more fun. And I like more fun than brains in my SW films.
Will definitely try to reserve judgment and not let reviews prepave how the experience is percieved.
This has the benefit of setting my expectations low. Out with the philosophy and morals of the the Jedi Order and the Force, in with 2.5 hours of fan service, laser swords, and crazy OP force powers. Woo!
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
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Peter Travers from Rolling Stone liked it, so that's good enough for me when it comes to movie critics. I've found that my tastes usually align with that guy probably 90% of the time. Same with Richard Roeper, and he seems to have enjoyed it as well.
Watched the TFA and the Last Jedi again tonight to prepare for tomorrow night.
TFA was fun and did exactly what it was supposed to by connecting the original trilogy to the new era, but it did lack depth. Was exactly what it needed to be at the time though, something easy to digest, really fun, and really felt like “Star Wars”.
I wish the TLJ wouldn’t have caused so much backlash though. It’s rare that I side with Critics over a fan base, but the critics were right about that film. It was a really good film, it took more risks than TFA, and really did push the Star Wars universe forward.
It wasn’t as much fun, and didn’t feel as “Star Warsy” as TFA but that was good thing and fit in with the theme of “letting the past die”. IMO it was a much deeper movie, the character development was great, and it grew the series in the way it needs to grow if they want to expand the universe. It did drag for about 30 minutes in the middle (first and last hour were great), and the CGI did need more work though as I think that did hurt it a bit.
I still think I will like Rise of Skywalker but I really do hope it at least keeps moving forward with at least some of the themes Johnson introduced about the force not being exclusive to Jedi or Sith but for everyone.
I actually think both movies were the right movies at the time to move the series forward but sadly the fan base didn’t really want the series to be “Less Star Warsy”, and wanted it to remain about nostalgia and ties to the past like the TFA.
Last edited by SuperMatt18; 12-18-2019 at 10:22 PM.
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I personally dont think TLJ deepened or progressed the character stories at all except perhaps for with Kylo Ren. I think it was 2+ hours of a lot of stuff happening on screen, yet nothing at all, as it ended up back where it started while revealing nothing of interest or intrigue. It explained nothing because it didn't have any answers to give and that was clear. It was one big "#### it, just 'cause". The movie went in a direction that made no sense given what TFA intended to set in motion - no continuity - and ended on the most uncliffhangery note perhaps ever that left no anticipation for the next chapter, despite being the middle film of a trilogy. Was it risky? Yeah, but doesnt mean it was at all good. I can make a sequel to a beloved franchise too and completely derail the plot arc with no real point or greater goal in doing so, but merely just to be "fresh and different", and I guess that would make me worthy of critical praise? I guess so.
You can grow and advance the overall story and universe while being true to the core of it without going full "screw it". Mandalorian is doing that as we speak. Rian wanted to make a pointless, dazzling sci-fi film with a much bigger budget than Looper but not a star wars film. Fine, good for him. But at least put some thought, some big ideas, and reasoning into why you're going to suddenly veer left, and make it interesting. It's part of a much bigger story after all. But there was nothing gratifying at the bottom of the dark well he dug and sent us all down. Just a big ####ing thud.
Last edited by djsFlames; 12-18-2019 at 11:17 PM.
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Watched the TFA and the Last Jedi again tonight to prepare for tomorrow night.
TFA was fun and did exactly what it was supposed to by connecting the original trilogy to the new era, but it did lack depth. Was exactly what it needed to be at the time though, something easy to digest, really fun, and really felt like “Star Wars”.
I wish the TLJ wouldn’t have caused so much backlash though. It’s rare that I side with Critics over a fan base, but the critics were right about that film. It was a really good film, it took more risks than TFA, and really did push the Star Wars universe forward.
It wasn’t as much fun, and didn’t feel as “Star Warsy” as TFA but that was good thing and fit in with the theme of “letting the past die”. IMO it was a much deeper movie, the character development was great, and it grew the series in the way it needs to grow if they want to expand the universe. It did drag for about 30 minutes in the middle (first and last hour were great), and the CGI did need more work though as I think that did hurt it a bit.
I still think I will like Rise of Skywalker but I really do hope it at least keeps moving forward with at least some of the themes Johnson introduced about the force not being exclusive to Jedi or Sith but for everyone.
I actually think both movies were the right movies at the time to move the series forward but sadly the fan base didn’t really want the series to be “Less Star Warsy”, and wanted it to remain about nostalgia and ties to the past like the TFA.
Your last paragraph seems a bit odd to me. Why is it surprising that Star Wars fans want the new movies to feel like Star Wars? Why would anyone want a “less Star Warsy” feel to these movies? I also don’t understand your issue with fans wanting the movies to tie in to the past. They’re sequels. They should tie in to the old movies somehow.
Instead what we got were movies that didn’t feel like Star Wars and movies that took a gigantic hot steamy Rian Johnson sized dump on not only TFA but also the original trilogy.
The First Order and The Resistance are lazy lazy lazy lazy factions. I have no idea why they wouldn’t have gone with the new Jedi Order vs The Knights of Ren. So much potential there. It’s still good vs evil. We don’t NEED Stormtroopers. Luke could have been given a role similar to Yoda’s. I have no idea who, where, or why Disney decided Star Wars needed less lightsabers but it was a stupid and wrong choice. TFA was good enough though that I could live with a reboot but I had hoped they’d take it more in that direction the next two movies.
We waited an entire movie and two years to finally see Luke again. Oh actually he sucks now and is basically a deranged hobo drinking green tit milk who tried to kill his nephew for some reason.
Who is Rey and where did she come from? Oh it doesn’t matter she’s just an orphan with drunk parents.
Poe is second in command, surely he will know the plan to escape the First Order! Oh, actually the purple haired Jurassic Park lady won’t tell him the plan because reasons.
Wow we finally get to see Snoke. Who is this guy? Wish I knew because he died after like two minutes. Oh sweet now we get to watch a ridiculous and horribly choreographed fight scene.
Hyperspace is a weapon now I guess. Didn’t think it worked that way but okay.
Oh Luke is going to redeem himself and have an epic lightsaber battle with Kylo Ren? Oh just kidding he’s not actually there and we get no fight oh and Luke is dead for some reason.
Oh and the humour. The painful, awful, boring humour. Make it stop.
No, TLJ is not a good film in any way. It’s horribly written, horribly choreographed, and did not advance the story of this trilogy in any way. You could take that film out of the saga and probably not miss anything of significance. All they need to do is put “Luke Skywalker is dead” in the opening crawl for TROS and you’d have all the information you need.
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The story didn’t advance a ton but the characters did. Rey, Kylo, Finn, Poe, Luke and Leia were all progressed as characters.
The story on the other hand lacked any discernible forward motion, literally. It was a slow motion spaceship chase.
ESB was somewhat similar in this way. Both ANH and ROTJ relied upon imminent destruction and a big bad to move the story forward. ESB was far more character driven with most of the movie relying on the character struggles and development being the story.
The problem with TLJ is that some people didn’t like the Rey/Luke story because it wasn’t what they expected and the Rose/Finn/Poe/Leia story just wasn’t as engaging as the Han/Lando/Leia story in ESB.
I wasn’t a fan of the latter but had no problem with the former. If you disliked both, well then yeah you were gonna have a bad time.
I’ve also long felt that the original trilogy set the gold standard for a trilogy. Introduction and first victory in chapter 1, bad guys fight back and put the good guys on the ropes for chapter 2 and a triumphant final victory in chapter 3. From that very basic standpoint TLJ was a moderate, if unspectacular, success. However I’d argue they didn’t go far enough. TLJ needed to end on a real downer where you thought the bad guys won and our heroes might be down for the count, with only a sliver of life at the end based largely on the character growth achieved, despite their failure this time round. Luke’s arc in ESB is a perfect example of this. The rebels almost look down and out but he has training and a purpose now. Again though, it was how TLJ got there that was problematic. And I do agree it didn’t, in many ways, have the consistent growth that ESB did on the foundations laid in ANH for the overall story arc.
Last edited by Cecil Terwilliger; 12-18-2019 at 11:32 PM.
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Your last paragraph seems a bit odd to me. Why is it surprising that Star Wars fans want the new movies to feel like Star Wars? Why would anyone want a “less Star Warsy” feel to these movies? I also don’t understand your issue with fans wanting the movies to tie in to the past. They’re sequels. They should tie in to the old movies somehow.
They should tie into the movies but they don’t need to be the exact same stories. Because if you want to expand the universe at some point you need to just break some of the typical Star Wars tropes.
Not every hero/villain needs to be related to somebody from the past.
The story doesn’t have to be as black and white as Jedi vs Sith being the only good and evil forever and ever, some grey can be introduced there to expand force users in the Universe and open up more potential stories.
The guy that starts as a bad guy doesn’t need a redemption story, he can end up just being the big bad guy.
As for Luke being the way he was in the movie, the movie actually goes into great detail to break down exactly why Luke is acting the way he was. And I get why people don’t like it, they want Luke to be the flawless hero that saved the universe like they built up in their childhood.
And overall it’s fine to have differing opinions on this. As somebody who didn’t watch Star Wars until I was older I think I do have a different perspectives to those who were kids when the OT first came out.
Your last paragraph seems a bit odd to me. Why is it surprising that Star Wars fans want the new movies to feel like Star Wars? Why would anyone want a “less Star Warsy” feel to these movies? I also don’t understand your issue with fans wanting the movies to tie in to the past. They’re sequels. They should tie in to the old movies somehow.
Instead what we got were movies that didn’t feel like Star Wars and movies that took a gigantic hot steamy Rian Johnson sized dump on not only TFA but also the original trilogy.
The First Order and The Resistance are lazy lazy lazy lazy factions. I have no idea why they wouldn’t have gone with the new Jedi Order vs The Knights of Ren. So much potential there. It’s still good vs evil. We don’t NEED Stormtroopers. Luke could have been given a role similar to Yoda’s. I have no idea who, where, or why Disney decided Star Wars needed less lightsabers but it was a stupid and wrong choice. TFA was good enough though that I could live with a reboot but I had hoped they’d take it more in that direction the next two movies.
We waited an entire movie and two years to finally see Luke again. Oh actually he sucks now and is basically a deranged hobo drinking green tit milk who tried to kill his nephew for some reason.
Who is Rey and where did she come from? Oh it doesn’t matter she’s just an orphan with drunk parents.
Poe is second in command, surely he will know the plan to escape the First Order! Oh, actually the purple haired Jurassic Park lady won’t tell him the plan because reasons.
Wow we finally get to see Snoke. Who is this guy? Wish I knew because he died after like two minutes. Oh sweet now we get to watch a ridiculous and horribly choreographed fight scene.
Hyperspace is a weapon now I guess. Didn’t think it worked that way but okay.
Oh Luke is going to redeem himself and have an epic lightsaber battle with Kylo Ren? Oh just kidding he’s not actually there and we get no fight oh and Luke is dead for some reason.
Oh and the humour. The painful, awful, boring humour. Make it stop.
No, TLJ is not a good film in any way. It’s horribly written, horribly choreographed, and did not advance the story of this trilogy in any way. You could take that film out of the saga and probably not miss anything of significance. All they need to do is put “Luke Skywalker is dead” in the opening crawl for TROS and you’d have all the information you need.
Luke didn’t try and kill Kylo. I’m surprised at how many people didn’t get that whole backstory. We saw that scene from two perspectives and according to Luke he considered it for a nanosecond. Then Kylo was just a victim in Luke’s eyes and he felt he’d failed as a master. Then Kylo attacked Luke. It was only in Kylo’s (presumably false) version did Luke try and kill him.
You may not have liked why he was a deranged hobo but it’s not like it came out of left field. Did people really think he was exiled because he wanted a 20 year vacation on the other side of the galaxy? It was hinted at strongly in TFA and clearly explained in TLJ.
Also the throne room fight scene has been hailed as one of the best battles of any Star Wars film.
We still don’t know Rey’s lineage. Just because her enemy Kylo said it, doesn’t make it true. He has motive to try and make her lose hope. He already lied to her about a Luke trying to assassinate him. I’ve never understood why a known liar and bad guy was just taken at face value by fans.
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Completely agree that it wasn't bleak enough. The bad guys won but the good guys we care about got away and never really felt threatened in any real way, even though they tried throughout the film to instill that feeling unsuccessfully (part of why it dragged on terribly). Have Poe or Finn be taken away or imprisoned in a way that makes them feel out of the heroes grasp? Maybe separate the protagonists. Have Rey lose a fight or be made to feel not invincible but vulnerable? Maybe she even loses her connection with the force and cant save her friends. That changes things in a much better way as to how it leads into the final chapter.
The way ESB ended was fantastic in that way. Han in carbonite? Luke without his hand or saber after being defeated and the empire with the upper hand on them? Really makes you want to tune in to see things be put right, but you're unsure and uneasy about how they will be able to overcome the odds against them to reunite and win.
The story didn’t advance a ton but the characters did. Rey, Kylo, Finn, Poe, Luke and Leia were all progressed as characters.
The story on the other hand lacked any discernible forward motion, literally. It was a slow motion spaceship chase.
ESB was somewhat similar in this way. Both ANH and ROTJ relied upon imminent destruction and a big bad to move the story forward. ESB was far more character driven with most of the movie relying on the character struggles and development being the story.
The problem with TLJ is that some people didn’t like the Rey/Luke story because it wasn’t what they expected and the Rose/Finn/Poe/Leia story just wasn’t as engaging as the Han/Lando/Leia story in ESB.
Agree.
The characters development is really what drove TLJ. And Empire was similar in that way, it was more about understanding the character motives instead of the story.
To your point there were three clear character arcs in TLJ and depending on your feeling on certain points it changes the movie ALOT.
Luke/Rey/Kylo: Lots of introspective about what happened between Kylo and Luke to shape their current characters (Rey actually takes a backseat here) and It really does grow those characters. BUT if you don’t like the reclusive flawed Luke storyline, and if you wanted Snoke/Rey to have some connection to the OT then you really aren’t going to like this.
Poe/Leia: Poe’s character development is interesting because everyone kind of thought he was supposed to be the “new” impulsive Han Solo character, and instead he’s becoming more of the general that Leia is. I personally like this arc but others don’t seem too.
Finn/Rose: I think it does kind of serve to expand Finn as growing to actually having a cause now. He started off as the guy just trying to escape the First order, then it seemed like his only real objective was to save the girl he had a crush on (Rey), but by the end he was willing to make the sacrifice play because he actually believed in the cause of the rebellion. Really it’s Finn that’s following the Hans arc in this one.
The 4 main character arcs are still very similar to the OT overall IMO
Rey = Luke
Poe = Leia
Finn = Han
Kylo = Vader
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger
Luke didn’t try and kill Kylo. I’m surprised at how many people didn’t get that whole backstory. We saw that scene from two perspectives and according to Luke he considered it for a nanosecond. Then Kylo was just a victim in Luke’s eyes and he felt he’d failed as a master. Then Kylo attacked Luke. It was only in Kylo’s (presumably false) version did Luke try and kill him.
You may not have liked why he was a deranged hobo but it’s not like it came out of left field. Did people really think he was exiled because he wanted a 20 year vacation on the other side of the galaxy? It was hinted at strongly in TFA and clearly explained in TLJ.
Also the throne room fight scene has been hailed as one of the best battles of any Star Wars film.
We still don’t know Rey’s lineage. Just because her enemy Kylo said it, doesn’t make it true. He has motive to try and make her lose hope. He already lied to her about a Luke trying to assassinate him. I’ve never understood why a known liar and bad guy was just taken at face value by fans.
This x100.
It was actually 3 perspectives. The first Luke story where he kind of lies about what happened, then we see it from Kylo’s eyes, and then we see the true story where Luke opens up to Rey about what actually happened. And he does that after being put in Kylo’s shoes after the angry looking Rey is standing over him prone with her lightsaber drawn.
People really seem to gloss over just how well they explain Luke’s motives for doing what he did, just because they don’t like how he ended up.
And even if people don’t like the storyline, Rian and TLJ get too much crap for this when it was actually JJ that made the decisions about the OT characters.
Luke being a reclusive hermit, Han going back to his days as a scoundrel with no cause to fight for, and Leia and Han being bad parents that were divorced were all set up by JJ with very little backstory at all. Then he kind of left Rian to have to pick up the pieces on that and explain the motives for those characters.
Last edited by SuperMatt18; 12-18-2019 at 11:59 PM.
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