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Old 12-15-2019, 04:48 PM   #381
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I myself have mixed-feelings when it comes to Hall.


Pros:
  • He provides another layer of high skill and offensive ability - would legitimately make the Flames more difficult to neautralize
  • Helps add to the overall 'team speed' - he is quick
Cons
  • His propensity for making blunders - especially in his own zone - is well known, especially when it comes to the lack of effort
  • He does have some perceived durability issues - no, he hasn't had a full season in the NHL, but he has had only two seasons in which he missed 20+ games. Still, there is that perception about him.
  • I have absolutely no doubt that Hall would be a prime candidate for taking a bit of a discount on his next contract if it was with a team that gave him a chance to win.
Neautral
  • Probably a high acquisition cost - would seriously remove some solid depth and possible future star from the team. There is always a huge risk when trading for high-profile stars and how the trade looks a few years down the road, and this is only exacerbated by question marks on his durability and upcoming cap costs to his contract.
I would have preferred Stone as he is a gamebreaker at both ends of the ice and provides solid leadership. Hall is still very much a one-dimensional player with question marks surrounding his compete level - especially on defence - and who isn't very durable. Still, I would definitely prefer to have him as an upgrade on this team, but I am not sure I would want the Flames to pay what the eventual price will be, and I do wonder how much of a discount he would take on his upcoming deal (10 million is a firm no from me - 8 million might be palatable, but only for 6 years, which takes him to 34).

Mixed-bag from me. I don't think he is the crappy 'one season lucky' player that some are making him out to be, but I also don't see him as an elite player either. Unquestionably, he is a talented player that other teams will have to key-in on, allowing this team to have a more dynamic offence, while also adding to the overall team speed (which is important), but not adding much to another area in which this team has needs - RHS, strong along the boards, grittiness.

It will be interesting to see how much he ends up being traded for, and then seeing how much he eventually signs for as well. For me, this isn't a 'acquire at almost any cost' type of player like Hall was, but unquestionably Treliving should be putting a lot of effort into acquiring. He is the highest scoring/most offensively skilled player that is rumoured to be available, even after perusing the bottom 7 teams in the standings today.

A few players that I would like the Flames to kick the tires on (in no particular order):

1) Jakob Silfverberg - Yes, he just signed a 5 year contract extension in March of this year, but that Anaheim team probably needs some rebuilding. He is 29 years old already, so maybe he would be receptive to a move even though he re-signed. 5.25 cap hit isn't terrible for what he brings either. Wish the Flames would be able to pry out Rakell, but that's a pipe-dream unless they want to severely over-pay.



2) Josh Anderson - having a completely miserable season. 1 goal and 4 assists in 26 games. I do think he was really a standout in the playoffs last year, and he has had a couple of decent seasons under his belt. 25 years old, 1.85 cap hit, RFA after this season, but arbitration eligible (a Treliving walk-away special usually).


3) Tyler Toffoli - kid can score goals usually. Up and down seasons through his career. I can't but help think that he would do better playing alongside either Monahan or Lindholm. He would definitely be a more legitimate scoring threat than Dube, Mangiapane or Bennett, plus he is a RHS. 4.6 million cap hit on a slightly backloaded deal (4.8). UFA after this season.


4) Brandon Saad - I don't particularly like this player, but I imagine he would be available. 6 million cap hit on a backloaded deal (6.75 this year, 6.5 next season). He produces decently enough, but he always seems to me like a player that is dependent on his line mates. That's a higher cap hit relative to production than I like, given that he doesn't bring a whole lot of other abilities to the team (not known for being great defensively, not very fast, not very gritty), and would just be another left-shooting winger.


5) Ryan Getzlaf - he would be my 'target', but is probably a pipe-dream. He has a full NMC, and is rumoured to want to finish his career in Anaheim. Still, you never know how a player may change his mind with the constant losing, and he is somewhat used to being in Calgary after playing for the Hitmen. 8.25 cap hit (tough to fit in) this year and next. I am sure Anaheim would demand quite the ransom for him, however. I do think he is the most likely to have the most positive impact from all the available players - including Hall - if the Flames were able to get acquire him. Very unlikely he gets traded anyway.


6) Adam Henrique - Decent 2nd line centre that is good all over the ice. Players like him help you win, but I don't remember him being exceptionally quick, and his frame isn't one that people associate with gritty playoff hockey either. Still, he is a decent player to consider if Anaheim decides that they have had enough of trying to win now. Don't love his contract - 5.825 cap hit for the next 5 seasons (including this one), each with a 10 team no trade clause. Really good depth type of move, and I am hesitant to tie-up this much cap for this long into this level of player.


7) Kyle Palmieri - some people really love him as a target. Fairly consistent output, but he doesn't add too much grit or help with team speed, but he is a RHS. I like his contract - 1 more season after this one with a 4.65 cap hit (5.0 and 4.25 actual dollars respectively).



8) Nikita Gusev - this one is tricky for me. Supposedly a high-ceiling player, but there are some serious question marks about him for me. He isn't lighting the world on fire in NJ (and thus why I think he could be available). Contract - 4.5 million for this year and next (700K in actual dollars this year, 4.0 million next), but comes with an 8 team no trade clause next year. He is small (5'9", 163lbs) so it is a questionable move adding yet another undersized winger, but he is quick and highly skilled. If the price was cheap enough, I would explore this trade. He is a RHS.


9) Jean-Gabriel Pageau - I like him and the way he plays, but the kind of season he is having makes me think that the Flames would end up over-paying for him now, and probably over-paying on his next contract too, though he is only 26. 3.1 million cap hit (3.4 actual dollars) on an expiring contract with no trade protection. I just think his acquisition price would be too pricey for the type of player that he is, but he does shoot right.


Nobody else is really standing out to me from these bottom 7 teams. Nobody in Detroit looks to be available since their top 6 scorers are all under the age of 25, with Filppula being their 7th top scorer and, IMO, not being much of an upgrade anywhere in the line-up. I would still really like Athanasiou with his wheels, grit and solid scoring ability, but Detroit would probably demand more than what he is worth. Chicago doesn't really have anyone that I would consider a 'target' outside of Saad, as they aren't moving Toews or Kane, nor are they going to want to move their young talented kids.



Maybe as the season progresses, we might see another team fall out of the standings. Calgary has been scouting Buffalo a lot lately, so maybe there is a good target there that I haven't really been looking at much.



Hall is by far the highest-skilled player available right now, but he is also most definitely not without his warts, and a bidding war will almost guarantee whomever acquires him has over-paid, yet it might make sense to the right team. I am personally on the wall when it comes to him.

Last edited by Calgary4LIfe; 12-15-2019 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 12-15-2019, 04:50 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache View Post
I assume you are presenting even strength stats and not including PP

And Taylor Hall’s +/- career = -39
8 out of 10 years he has been a minus

You found stats that imply he should score more than he gets scored on. Hooray.

Guess what? Counting actual goals for and against, he doesn’t

And guess what? Your stats and mine both happened based on counting events that happened with other players on the ice too.

So what is it that goes wrong more often than not with this guy?
Hall gets a LOT of his points on the PP which obviously does nothing for his plius/minus.
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Old 12-15-2019, 04:51 PM   #383
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Yes he is elite. Taylor Hall's offensive peak is 93 points in one of the lowest-scoring eras in NHL history. And here's a list of players who have scored more than Hall's career high of 93 points for the Flames in the last 30 years (and that's a generous sample, given how much the NHL has changed since)

Al MacInnis
Theo Fleury
Jarome Iginla
Johnny Gaudreau
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Old 12-15-2019, 04:52 PM   #384
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double post
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Old 12-15-2019, 04:52 PM   #385
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I still cant believe people want Hall on this team with the term and cap hit he is going to carry. He just inst worth it at all.

For what? His goal scoring?

Andrew Mangiapaine has the same amount of goals as Hall does this season. Yeah, that's right.
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Old 12-15-2019, 04:53 PM   #386
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No offense but that is nothing but a bunch of stuff.

IMO there has to be at least 1 first round pick (likely 2), a young roster player on D, and a G (or G prospect) who isnt playing junior hockey and has played either in the NHL or AHL at minimum.

So it would probably have to be a 1st, Andersson/Kylington, and maybe Gillies but likely Parsons, and I doubt even that is good enough.

No offense taken. But that is not a bunch of stuff. That's 2 high value assets in Hammer and Wolf (prove me wrong on Wolf right now), a capable winger and a decent B prospect. Sure, maybe a 1st has to go, then I'd offer the 2021. And then a 2and or 3rd from this year if we still have them. But that's like the very tippy top of my offer if I were Flames GM.

Edit: and for clarity, I am firmly in the dont trade for Talor Hall boat. But I'm bored and thought about potential offering outside of selling entire farms that could actually work.

I think Wolf is the biggest prize actually. Like I wouldnt be shocked if he wasnt the first name out a GMs lips right now.

Last edited by dammage79; 12-15-2019 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 12-15-2019, 04:54 PM   #387
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Plus minus is such a wonky stat to put so much emphasis on. People are aware it’s influenced by teams, right?

Like -5 James Neal on the Flames was actually a worse player than -16 James Neal on the Oilers. -11 James Neal on Vegas was playing better than either of them.

But if plus minus means more to you than a Hart trophy and putting up almost a near point per game average, then yeah, you should hate Hall. But it’s a really genuinely silly thing to put a ton of stock in when you refuse to take team stats into consideration. It’s completely narrative driven.
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Old 12-15-2019, 04:55 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood View Post
I still cant believe people want Hall on this team with the term and cap hit he is going to carry. He just inst worth it at all.

For what? His goal scoring?

Andrew Mangiapaine has the same amount of goals as Hall does this season. Yeah, that's right.
Yeah thats where I am at on it too. Never mind his acquisition cost, he will be getting paid big on his next deal, and when you consider the Flames already have things set on LW for the next few years, where the hell does he fit in exactly?

Way way better to address the RW position or a C that is a RH shot.....those are all hard to come by though.
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Old 12-15-2019, 05:02 PM   #389
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Do people realize that Hall has scored more then 27 goals in a single season once. And that one time was in his Hart season where his shooting % was nearly 40% higher then his career average.

He might be the best offensive player available right not but he’s not that’s good.

Injury prone, going to get overpaid, poor defensively, questionable effort levels.... pass.

Go to Arizona or Colorado so we can stop talking about it
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Old 12-15-2019, 05:02 PM   #390
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No offense taken. But that is not a bunch of stuff. That's 2 high value assets in Hammer and Wolf (prove me wrong on Wolf right now), a capable winger and a decent B prospect. Sure, maybe a 1st has to go, then I'd offer the 2021. And then a 2and or 3rd from this year if we still have them. But that's like the very tippy top of my offer if I were Flames GM.
Hamonic isnt a high value asset though when he is UFA in 6 months.

Wolf? He is having a great year playing junior for sure, but he isnt a blue chipper at least at this point and he doesn't have the size that most NHL teams covet.

Like I said before Kylington minimum but likely Andersson for the young Dman part of things...a 1st and a 2nd, and then you get into the rest of it. Shero will maximize this thing, no question.
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Old 12-15-2019, 05:04 PM   #391
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Plus minus is such a wonky stat to put so much emphasis on. People are aware it’s influenced by teams, right?

Like -5 James Neal on the Flames was actually a worse player than -16 James Neal on the Oilers. -11 James Neal on Vegas was playing better than either of them.

But if plus minus means more to you than a Hart trophy and putting up almost a near point per game average, then yeah, you should hate Hall. But it’s a really genuinely silly thing to put a ton of stock in when you refuse to take team stats into consideration. It’s completely narrative driven.

You have your opinion. And that’s fine.

It merits consideration among other stats.

Guess how hockey games are won. By outscoring your opponent. Goals for matter. Goals against matter. Especially for top line players. Those are the guys who are supposed to outscore the opponent. You don’t want a top line player that puts you in a position to hope the 4th line will pick up for their defensive blunders.

Some players are massive pluses over their career. Look at Crosby. He was a -1 his first year, and has never been an overall minus since, despite the coach often putting at least one plug on his line for him to drag around while they spread out the offence.

You never see the excuse about Crosby playing for a bad team because he elevates the other players on the ice and the team isn’t bad, because of him

He plays the right way and never cheats on defensive effort. Hall has offensive skills but does not play the right way defensively

You have all seen it. Don’t pretend you haven’t

You may want him on the team and that’s fine. I don’t

Given questions about him in the room and concerns around team chemistry, lack of defensive effort, and compromise of other uses for those dollars are the three main reasons.
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Old 12-15-2019, 05:05 PM   #392
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Hamonic isnt a high value asset though when he is UFA in 6 months.

Wolf? He is having a great year playing junior for sure, but he isnt a blue chipper at least at this point and he doesn't have the size that most NHL teams covet.

Like I said before Kylington minimum but likely Andersson for the young Dman part of things...a 1st and a 2nd, and then you get into the rest of it. Shero will maximize this thing, no question.
Yeah just like Taylor Hall isn’t a high value asset because he’s a UFA in July.

...if Hamonic were made available, he’d return a 1st rounder.
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Old 12-15-2019, 05:12 PM   #393
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You have your opinion. And that’s fine.

It merits consideration among other stats.

Guess how hockey games are won. By outscoring your opponent. Goals for matter. Goals against matter. Especially for top line players. Those are the guys who are supposed to outscore the opponent. You don’t want a top line player that puts you in a position to hope the 4th line will pick up for their defensive blunders.

Some players are massive pluses over their career. Look at Crosby. He was a -1 his first year, and has never been an overall minus since, despite the coach often putting at least one plug on his line for him to drag around while they spread out the offence.

You never see the excuse about Crosby playing for a bad team because he elevates the other players on the ice and the team isn’t bad, because of him

He plays the right way and never cheats on defensive effort. Hall has offensive skills but does not play the right way defensively

You have all seen it. Don’t pretend you haven’t

You may want him on the team and that’s fine. I don’t

Given questions about him in the room and concerns around team chemistry, lack of defensive effort, and compromise of other uses for those dollars are the three main reasons.
Yeah, Hall is not Crosby. News at 11.

I don’t really even want Hall on the team. I don’t care. But the idea that plus minus suddenly is THE stat or that we should turn down every player that isn’t Sidney Crosby is bizarre. We all wish we had O’Reilly, right? Well, not a lot of people wanted him when he was available. So best laid plans and all.

If you keep waiting to somehow get a perfect player in a trade, you’re going to miss out or be unhappy with the cost. It’s the way it goes. Guys like Hall? Far from perfect, but that’s why he’s available and that’s why the cost isn’t insane.
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Old 12-15-2019, 05:14 PM   #394
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I still cant believe people want Hall on this team with the term and cap hit he is going to carry. He just inst worth it at all.



For what? His goal scoring?



Andrew Mangiapaine has the same amount of goals as Hall does this season. Yeah, that's right.


Lol

Hall has 62 points in his last 63 games playing on a offensively inept team.

Mangiapane has 23 points in his last 77 games. Wild comparison.

If Hall gets traded here people will be surprised at how good he is.
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Old 12-15-2019, 05:15 PM   #395
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Yeah just like Taylor Hall isn’t a high value asset because he’s a UFA in July.

...if Hamonic were made available, he’d return a 1st rounder.

Not from a rebuilding team dealing away their best player he wont.
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Old 12-15-2019, 05:18 PM   #396
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Lol

Hall has 62 points in his last 63 games playing on a offensively inept team.

Mangiapane has 23 points in his last 77 games. Wild comparison.

If Hall gets traded here people will be surprised at how good he is.
Hall is a good player, actually he is great player, but he is (LS LW)literally the last thing this club needs.
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Old 12-15-2019, 05:23 PM   #397
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Hall is a good player, actually he is great player, but he is (LS LW)literally the last thing this club needs.


For sure, but elite talent is elite talent. Gaudreau and Tkachuk can both slide to the right side
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Old 12-15-2019, 05:25 PM   #398
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Right, so not a game breaker. Not even close.
It’s a semantics argument.

Personally I’m not that big of a Hall fan and I probably wouldn’t pony up what’s needed to get him. That said I would admit he has game breaking speed and skill that he inconsistently demonstrates.

He is a game breaker. Sometimes.

Is he what’s needed? I’m not convinced. But to suggest he doesn’t have game breaking ability is to sell him short and underrate his skill.
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Old 12-15-2019, 05:26 PM   #399
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if Hall were to come here he wouldnt be viewed as the savior but rather another piece of the puzzle. The leadership group still starts at Gio
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Old 12-15-2019, 05:27 PM   #400
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For sure, but elite talent is elite talent. Gaudreau and Tkachuk can both slide to the right side
Yes and no.

Elite talent playing on a 2nd powerplay unit, with 3rd liners, just just a frustrated player who isn't living up to his salary. Someone will have to sacrifice their offensive opportunity to fit a player like Hall in, and then become the new whipping boy.
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