[News] October 1 -- Flames final roster moves

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Realistic defence depth on the farm presently:

Davidson
Valiev
Yelesin

Okay then I'm glad the Flames still have Stone

[topfiverecords]

These sports networks sure are getting lazy.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Great! We can only hope he turns into another TJ Brodie.

Is that the TJ Brodie that was 4th best in the league at breakouts last season?

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...best-breaking/

Or the TJ Brodie that was named as half of the leagues top pairing last year?

https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/1811601

Or were you talking about the TJ Brodie that ranks 5th among all NHL dmen in takeaways over the last 3 seasons? Trailing only Slavin, Burns, Karlsson, & Matheson.

Hmm that would go against your narrative of TJ Brodie being terrible though right.

To add to that, while TJ's giveaways were high, he had fewer of them than Brent Burns, Aaron Ekblad, and Drew Doughty.

You know, those terrible defenceman who should all be traded.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

I am guessing he was thinking of the Brodie that coughed up brutal giveaways that led directly to goals. Both narratives can be true at the same time.

When you're the last player back and your partner is taking advantage of your break-out skills and your ability to cover for teammates' mistakes in order to make an aggressive push up the ice, there's nobody left between you and the goaltender if you do give away the puck. Gio was great last year, but Brodie gave him the opportunity to be so. Paired with someone with lesser skills, Gio would not have had the Norris season he did. If Gio lost the puck while pressing deep into the corner of the offensive zone, then Brodie was either in position (or fast enough to get into position) to cover for him. This is not to say that Brodie was the sole (or even the most important) reason for Gio's success, but Gio's numbers were not as good with any other partner. Particularly consider how much of a step back Gio took when playing with Hamilton, who was at that time considered one of the league's top defensemen and himself received several Norris votes.

In essence, Brodie's giveaways often lead to high-risk opposition chances at least in part because of team structure and how he was utilized, and any other player given a similar role would have also had many high-risk giveaways. So yes, you can certainly point to brutal giveaways that lead to opposition goals, but if you break the plays down, you will generally find that they were in situations in which Brodie was the last player back and had no available outlets to move the puck up the ice. This is not to say that Brodie is a Norris-calibre defensemen, but he is a top 2 defensemen, and together with Gio, they make the best pairing in the league because their skills and styles of play complement one another so well.

[Bunk]

Bob McKenzie picked the Flames to take 1st in the West again, so that's interesting.

[PugnaciousIntern]

Disappointing that Dube didn't take a step forward this camp. There's plenty of time for him, but there was an opportunity for him to make the opening night roster. Hopefully he'll get into a number of NHL games later this year

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

I am guessing he was thinking of the Brodie that coughed up brutal giveaways that led directly to goals. Both narratives can be true at the same time.

I am willing to bet Hamonic, Hanifin, Andersson, Valimaki, and even Gio have lowlights last year where they "coughed up brutal giveaways that led directly to goals". Most of them in more significant games i.e. playoffs than the random matinee against the Red Wings or Rangers.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I am willing to bet Hamonic, Hanifin, Andersson, Valimaki, and even Gio have lowlights last year where they "coughed up brutal giveaways that led directly to goals". Most of them in more significant games i.e. playoffs than the random matinee against the Red Wings or Rangers.

I never denied those guys didn’t have giveaways. I just think that Brodie’s play slipped significantly last year. To the point where I honestly thought he played his last game as a Flame. I don’t think I am alone in that view.

I am not a Brodie hater. I hope he has a great year. I just openly wonder how he will do this year and how he will be utilized. I think it is possible Anderson will supplant him on the first pair, and the team will be better off.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by pugnaciousintern

disappointing that dube didn't take a step forward this camp. There's plenty of time for him, but there was an opportunity for him to make the opening night roster. Hopefully he'll get into a number of nhl games later this year

https://twitter.com/user/status/1179131369009496065

I thought he explained Dube's demotion well here.

[FireGilbert]

34 points and a plus 29 is slipping? What do you consider a good season?

I’m shaking my head at the Brodie hate. All the stats and expert analysis show he is a legitimate first pairing defender but because you watched a few games where he made a giveaway all of a sudden he needs to be run out of town.

I was okay trading Brodie for a top line forward with term but no chance I’d be happy with an asset management move trading him for picks/prospects. He is going to be a huge part of the Flames this season and it will be sad to see him go as a free agent.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

34 points paired with a Norris trophy winner for most of the season is fine. I didn’t think he had a particularly good season and felt his play went south as the year went on. Pretty sure the coaching staff took a similar view.

Not Brodie hate, I could be wrong and everything will be fine this year. But I am not so sure and would not be surprised if he ended upon the third pair or traded by the end of the year.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

34 points paired with a Norris trophy winner for most of the season is fine. I didn’t think he had a particularly good season and felt his play went south as the year went on. Pretty sure the coaching staff took a similar view...

How's that?

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

How's that?

Played third pair, with Anderson playing with Gio.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Played third pair, with Anderson playing with Gio.

Yeah... for a few games. Played almost the entire season with Gio. That is a pretty weak example. Coaches shift things around all the time to see what works. There is no metric you can point to that would show that Brodie had a down season other than a few bad cough ups and 'the coaches put him on the third pair a couple of games'.

Edit: I don't think Brodie on the 3rd pairing was a demotion, either. I think it was more likely to roll 3 capable pairings and not have two rookies exposed on that 3rd pair.

[jaikorven]

Originally Posted by VilleN

Edit: I don't think Brodie on the 3rd pairing was a demotion, either. I think it was more likely to roll 3 capable pairings and not have two rookies exposed on that 3rd pair.

Pretty sure that this was the case too.

[GioforPM]

I feel left out of this debate since I believe neither that Brodie is a superstar defence man and the wind beneath Gio’s wings nor that he is a dumpster fire responsible for the majority of goals against the Flames.

I do think the fact other star d-men have giveaways is a false equivalency. Worse defence men also have fewer giveaways.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by jaikorven

Pretty sure that this was the case too.

There are advanced stats pointing to both Brodie and Andersson having the similar numbers when paired with Gio last year (CF 56% with and CF 47% without). You'd expect that with a rookie and not quite as much with a veteran.

With that said, Brodie was solid enough, but you certainly can't deny he doesn't fare well without Giordano by his side. I'd take the risk and put him on the third pair moving forward and allow Andersson to continue to progress with more responsibility this year. If it's not working, there's no reason you can't go back.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

There are advanced stats pointing to both Brodie and Andersson having the similar numbers when paired with Gio last year (CF 56% with and CF 47% without). You'd expect that with a rookie and not quite as much with a veteran.

With that said, Brodie was solid enough, but you certainly can't deny he doesn't fare well without Giordano by his side. I'd take the risk and put him on the third pair moving forward and allow Andersson to continue to progress with more responsibility this year. If it's not working, there's no reason you can't go back.

Well one of the reasons Brodie struggles away from Gio is that he is a LHD that sucks on the left side and the only reason he is ever separated from Gio is to try and force him into a traditional L-R pairing

[Rando]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I am willing to bet Hamonic, Hanifin, Andersson, Valimaki, and even Gio have lowlights last year where they "coughed up brutal giveaways that led directly to goals". Most of them in more significant games i.e. playoffs than the random matinee against the Red Wings or Rangers.

Out of all the stats being watched, counted, tracked then picked apart by rabid hockey fans are defensive zone and giveaways leading to goals not being tracked?

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Rando

Out of all the stats being watched, counted, tracked then picked apart by rabid hockey fans are defensive zone and giveaways leading to goals not being tracked?

When Hall was an Oiler CP had the DERP (defensive error resulting in points). Kinda surprised that there isn't something real.