Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by Stud_McCool

Not sure how much Lucic will help this team, but to me, two of the biggest and entitled whiners last year, in Smith and Neal, are gone - to the same team, no less. That's already a win in itself.

I think this is something that is being missed to a degree. The Oilers have had character issues for years. Now they have traded character player for sulker. In fact two of them, and one of the handlers is GG.

They may get goals, but this is regression in the area the Oilers most need. Players who don’t fold tent and go home when the going gets tough.

I managed to talk to an ex player recently and they told me room chemistry is probably the most important factor in winning teams. Guys who you know have your back and you have theirs. He said reason most high talent teams that fail is because the players pack up and go home after the game and couldn’t care about the team.

I think Smith cares a lot, but Neal? Dude is a mercenary. So should be interesting to see what happens when things play out.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This trade looks to me like the Flames wanted Neal off the roster no matter what. There must have been concerns in the room.

Could be.

I wanted him off the roster no matter what just strictly based on his on ice play. I’m usually optimistic in general but I had zero optimism that Neal would rebound for us. Neal looked done as an nhler last season. Didn’t have nhl speed, not enough compete, not enough jam, no ability to play with the puck. He didn’t fit on any line. He had zero chemistry with anyone.

Neal was an unmitigated disaster last year. He had to be moved. He doesn’t fit in our lineup anywhere.

[3rd liner]

I still can’t believe this is real. I thought i’d wake up today and it was a bad dream. This trade is a triple kick in the nuts for me:
1) followed Neal since his days with the stars and was excited for his arrival . Scoring and snarl. But saw none of that. Was really frustrated with his terrible season but was hoping for a redemption year. Now that won’t happen here.
2). He went to the oil, for gods sakes. Now I hope he does not have a redemption year. Anywhere else I would have been ok with a bounce back.
3). Have despised lucic for years. I was angry when L.A., my distantly second favourite team, brought him on board. Now he is on my team. And not effective anymore. Terrible contract. Couldn’t we have gotten a cheaper facepuncher? I REALLY hope I am wrong and that Neal sucks and lucic adds value. But I will never say ‘Looooch’ in the Saddledome.

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

I think this is something that is being missed to a degree. The Oilers have had character issues for years. Now they have traded character player for sulker. In fact two of them, and one of the handlers is GG.

They may get goals, but this is regression in the area the Oilers most need. Players who don’t fold tent and go home when the going gets tough.

I managed to talk to an ex player recently and they told me room chemistry is probably the most important factor in winning teams. Guys who you know have your back and you have theirs. He said reason most high talent teams that fail is because the players pack up and go home after the game and couldn’t care about the team.

I think Smith cares a lot, but Neal? Dude is a mercenary. So should be interesting to see what happens when things play out.

Thing with Smith is that he cared so much he couldn't handle the reality of his awful play. Asked even simple, gentle questions, Smith would get out of joint. He could never just say "Yeah man, I was crap tonight, but I'll be better tomorrow." If, and I use the word intentionally, IF he was really like that, I can see it being an issue in the dressing room. A guy letting in 5, 3 of which were bad, sitting in the dressing room and saying "Well, I played good enough, must be an issue with the defense...." would not be super welcome.

[tkflames]

It was said earlier and bears repaeating. The Flames are better today than they were yesterday with more cap room to maneuver. That's the Flames take on this.

Let Neal pad his stars and the Oil finish 24th instead of 25th. If you think the Flames are buying out any player with more than 2 years remaining on their contract (especially with Brouwer on the books another 3) you probably need to adjust your expectations.

[CalgaryFan1988]

So basically Neal had his worst season ever after going to the SCF and realizing how hard it is on the body.

Now he wanted to go to Edmonton, where he is guaranteed a long offseason to rest his tired body.

makes sense to me.

[Buck Murdock]

Neal kinda reminded me of Tony Amonte as a flame. Over the hill guy brought in for scoring but just ended up skating around. Glad Looch is a Flame, he's going to bounce back next year.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That's just pissy.

If you don't want to like the deal I get that. Discounting statistics that are hard to refute is a waste of bandwidth.

And it doesn't actually say that. It says he was a positive contribution player period. I wasn't quoting relative numbers.

You’re overreacting.

Like I said, he was on a terrible team. He was one of their better players. He got a lot of ice time. The Oilers’ third and fourth lines are atrocious.

Consider that he is going to be bottom six here barring injuries. He will get nary a sniff of top two ice time.

[FlamesAddiction]

I’ve warmed up to the trade now.

I doubt getting Lucic to waive his NMC clause for the expansion draft will be a issue. Either way, he won’t be moving so it would just be a formality.

I do think Neal rebounds, but we didn’t need him last year and we don’t need him this year. We do need someone that at least hits and puts forth an effort.

[taxbuster]

Personally really dislike this deal.

OTOH part of BT's job is to maximize use of the owners' money, so I guess he did that.

The "Winning the Stanley Cup" part, not so much.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Personally really dislike this deal.

OTOH part of BT's job is to maximize use of the owners' money, so I guess he did that.

The "Winning the Stanley Cup" part, not so much.

Would Neal have contributed to winning a Stanley cup? Because that's all we've lost here

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Shazam

You’re overreacting.

Like I said, he was on a terrible team. He was one of their better players. He got a lot of ice time. The Oilers’ third and fourth lines are atrocious.

Consider that he is going to be bottom six here barring injuries. He will get nary a sniff of top two ice time.

Neal averaged 14:57 of ice time on the Flames.
Lucic averaged 13:14 of ice time on the Oilers.
Hathaway averaged 10:32 of ice time on the Flames.

Assuming Neal's PP time as the second unit screen man goes to Lucic (probably with Hanifin/Andersson/Bennett/Backlund) and Hathaway's 5v5 minutes go to Lucic, I don't think it's too out there to expect Lucic to be around the 12-13 minute mark, about what he logged in Edmonton.

What the "advanced stats say" to use your words, is that Lucic was a positive player in almost every underlying area, while modtly playing with the likes of Ryan Nugent Hopkins, Zack Kassian, and Kyle Brodziak.

Even if he's ultimately one of our less strong possession players, there's a very low chance he's the kind of anchor that either Neal or Hathaway have been. Hathaway has only ever had decent underlyings with the Ryan/Mangiapane duo, and Neal didn't have decent underlyings with ANYONE last year, although Bennett did pull him up to respectability at times. It stands to reason that Lucic's positive impact on the likes of Brodziak and Kassian is not something Hathaway or Neal would necessarily be having

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Buck Murdock

Neal kinda reminded me of Tony Amonte as a flame. Over the hill guy brought in for scoring but just ended up skating around. Glad Looch is a Flame, he's going to bounce back next year.

Amonte scored 72 points as a Flame, including 42 his first season.

He got old. But he was always a pro and never a liability. Plus 3 and -4 in his two seasons. He was 35 when he got here, and time got him.

Nothing like James Neal.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by Shazam

You’re overreacting.

Like I said, he was on a terrible team. He was one of their better players. He got a lot of ice time. The Oilers’ third and fourth lines are atrocious.

Consider that he is going to be bottom six here barring injuries. He will get nary a sniff of top two ice time.

He only got 13:14 mins ATOI last year after averaging 16 to 17 mins the previous 8 seasons; they pigeon holed him as he start to fall out of favour and become snake bitten but as the numbers suggest even after being given terrible line mates he still helped drive play. I think he will fit in nice here and may even carve out some PP time.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Personally really dislike this deal.

OTOH part of BT's job is to maximize use of the owners' money, so I guess he did that.

The "Winning the Stanley Cup" part, not so much.

Getting rid of a disgruntled, useless anchor, and taking on a gruntled anchor that adds the physicality that this oft called "butter soft" team so desperately needs? I'm a-ok with this.

As someone said earlier, I think the biggest pill to swallow is that we all made fun of this contract for so long, now we look like fools. But that's just pride getting in the way of what is a move that makes total sense for both sides.

We just traded our blue (pouty) anchor for a red (firey) anchor. Matches better.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Neal averaged 14:57 of ice time on the Flames.
Lucic averaged 13:14 of ice time on the Oilers.
Hathaway averaged 10:32 of ice time on the Flames.

Assuming Neal's PP time as the second unit screen man goes to Lucic (probably with Hanifin/Andersson/Bennett/Backlund) and Hathaway's 5v5 minutes go to Lucic, I don't think it's too out there to expect Lucic to be around the 12-13 minute mark, about what he logged in Edmonton.

Yup last year the Oilers tried to use him in more of a third line role. Which when you think about it is terrifying when you consider just how terrible the Oilers are.

Anyhow like I said before this trade is lateral at best.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Neal averaged 14:57 of ice time on the Flames.
Lucic averaged 13:14 of ice time on the Oilers.
Hathaway averaged 10:32 of ice time on the Flames.

Assuming Neal's PP time as the second unit screen man goes to Lucic (probably with Hanifin/Andersson/Bennett/Backlund) and Hathaway's 5v5 minutes go to Lucic, I don't think it's too out there to expect Lucic to be around the 12-13 minute mark, about what he logged in Edmonton.

What the "advanced stats say" to use your words, is that Lucic was a positive player in almost every underlying area, while modtly playing with the likes of Ryan Nugent Hopkins, Zack Kassian, and Kyle Brodziak.

Even if he's ultimately one of our less strong possession players, there's a very low chance he's the kind of anchor that either Neal or Hathaway have been. Hathaway has only ever had decent underlyings with the Ryan/Mangiapane duo, and Neal didn't have decent underlyings with ANYONE last year, although Bennett did pull him up to respectability at times. It stands to reason that Lucic's positive impact on the likes of Brodziak and Kassian is not something Hathaway or Neal would necessarily be having

RNH is the Oilers second best player.

The Oilers do have a coach that plays for Corsi. If you accept that Corsi is related to points then Lucic is still going to be oh so bad.

What a high bar we’re setting here BTW - he’s better than Hathaway? Phew.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Shazam

RNH is the Oilers second best player.

The Oilers do have a coach that plays for Corsi. If you accept that Corsi is related to points then Lucic is still going to be oh so bad.

What a high bar we’re setting here BTW - he’s better than Hathaway? Phew.

RNH is the Oilers' third best forward. There is no argument that he is on the same tier as Draisaitl or McDavid, and in fact there's a lot of reason to think he's a product of those two. I'm not convinced RNH is any better than Backlund or Bennett if you wanna talk about guys getting gifted top six minutes on a bad team he's a far better example of inflated stats. None of his underlyings whether it's passing stats or primary points or possession have been anything to write home about.

Neither McLellan nor Hitchcock "play for corsi".

The bar for Lucic is being better than the players he's replacing, yes. Which would be Neal on special teams and Hathaway at ES. And there's no reason not to think the Flames have improved in those areas. Is he overpaid? Yes, but we were never going to magically poof Neal's contract away. Playing with Mangiapane, Ryan, or Bennett there is no reason to think Lucic can't throw up 10-15 goals and ~15 assists from our bottom six. He will be playing with better players and against softer competition.

The fact that we've freed up half a million in cap space shouldn't be overlooked either. We will need all the wiggle room to retain Bennett/Rittich/Tkachuk.

[ForeverFlameFan]

I really hope Lucic causes havoc against his former team.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

I wonder what we can read into Johnny (and probably other players) getting involved to make this deal happen? Is it an indictment on Neal as a dressing room guy that key players were helping get him out of the club?

I don't know about indictment, but this article in the Athletic by Duhatschek suggests Neal never found a fit with the team:

Quote:
If you ever wandered into the Calgary Flames’ dressing room last season, looking for James Neal, you’d find him stashed away in the far corner, the very last locker stall in the room. It’s not exactly where you’d expect to go searching for a player who was originally signed to provide a leadership voice and a winning pedigree to Calgary, based on Neal consecutive Stanley Cup final trips over the past two seasons.

For whatever reason – chemistry, a poor fit with potential first-line mates Johnny Gaudreau and Sean Monahan or simply the inability at the age of 31 to rebound from two long seasons and two short summers – Neal was never a fit in his now one-and-only season with the Flames. He was supposed to be a central piece in the emerging leadership group of the team.

Instead, he was a peripheral figure, literally and figuratively, on a team that won the Western Conference regular-season title, without any meaningful contributions from their expensive free-agent add

https://theathletic.com/1086265/2019...or-james-neal/