The Stephan trial and evidence-based healthcare

[mrkajz44]

For everyone chastising GGG here, the Crown's argument is there was no wrongdoing until the 11th. Here is the quote from the CBC article:

In her opening statement, prosecutor Britta Kristensen said although Ezekiel might have been ill earlier, the Crown is not alleging any wrongdoing until the three-day period from March 10 to 13, 2012.

(I believe the article has an error saying the 10th as March 10 to 13 is 4 days and the 10th doesn't make sense on the timeline).

While I think pretty much all of us agree that March 6 was the time for real action, even the Crown doesn't think that inaction at that point was criminal.

[OMG!WTF!]

I had a friend who insisted I contact one of these idiots on FB a couple years ago and damn does she ever trigger me. She's on to MLM vitamin marketing now with Vasayo...formerly Usana, formerly Monavida or whatever the brain dead flavour of the month is. But like every week is a new stupid cure that just cycles from dummy to dummy. This week is drinking your own pee. Last week was give me $300-$500 a month you can stop taking all your prescriptions. There's a constant underlying anti vax theme and a David Stehpan speaks the truth din as well. Mix in some gold bar investing and the next Bitcoin is here crap and you have a complete meal of stupidity. I want to rat her out for being a lying. cheating, banned for life ex realtor in Calgary, total idiot but I guess people need to learn for themselves.

[woob]

How these people use a "David Stephan speaks the truth" angle and people still fall in for this stuff is just mind boggling. His child DIED, so obviously none of the quackery worked. How, as a parent, does that not give you huge alarm bells that this stuff is absolute nonsense?

[calf]

Originally Posted by woob

How these people use a "David Stephan speaks the truth" angle and people still fall in for this stuff is just mind boggling. His child DIED, so obviously none of the quackery worked. How, as a parent, does that not give you huge alarm bells that this stuff is absolute nonsense?

They're selfish and arrogant. By going against the establishment, they're able to project a sense of superiority that other people don't have, and it makes up for their shortcomings, similar to conspiracy theorists.

By doing so, they're putting themselves ahead of the best interests of their child. Recognizing that they made a mistake would be admitting their beliefs are wrong, and their pride can't let that happen.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by woob

How these people use a "David Stephan speaks the truth" angle and people still fall in for this stuff is just mind boggling. His child DIED, so obviously none of the quackery worked. How, as a parent, does that not give you huge alarm bells that this stuff is absolute nonsense?

I think they have a lot of whatever Donald Trump has. This person has videos from last year telling everyone they can get everything they need from organic food. Then this year she posts a video about how the dirt your food is grown in is poison and you need vitamins to survive. And then totally denies ever saying food is all you need. She just mangles everything and keeps plodding along a la Trump saying she has all the info you need to live.

I get the same feeling from David Stephan. He doesn't give a f about his dead kid. He just wants to prove his weird delusion of events.

[CaptainCrunch]

https://globalnews.ca/news/5356813/s...medium=Twitter

A father on trial in his son’s death suggested Wednesday that he and his wife would have been better off going directly to hospital rather than handing the child over to an ambulance.

Court has heard the couple made two 911 calls on March 13, 2012. The first was when Ezekiel had stopped breathing, but he seemed to recover, so David Stephan turned down an offer for an ambulance.


Within the hour, the Stephans were on the phone with a dispatcher again as they drove from their southern Alberta home near Glenwood to meet an ambulance on the highway.

David Stephan, who is representing himself in court, spent hours cross-examining paramedic Ken Cherniawsky, who met the Stephans while they were on the way to the nearest hospital in Cardston.


Cherniawsky testified Tuesday that the ambulance wasn’t properly equipped with either the right-sized valve mask or endotracheal tube for a patient of Ezekiel’s age.


“Yesterday it was identified it was approximately 8 1/2 minutes without oxygen whatsoever. No chest rise. No chest fall. Correct?” Stephan asked Wednesday.

“Would it have been better to have just kept on driving to hospital with Collet doing the CPR than for him to end up in an ambulance and go 8 1/2 minutes without oxygen?” said Stephan.


“No. If a patient, regardless of whether it’s a pediatric or an adult, if they’re in cardiac arrest, the evidence-based, definitive treatment which proves to have the most success is defibrillation … and the ambulance had the equipment available,” said Cherniawsky.

[4X4]

The arrogance of that guy is astounding. Not only is he a doctor, but he's also a lawyer. I hope he gets something unprecedented, like 15 years+.

[woob]

Yup. As someone else mentioned in this thread, they need to make an example out of them and set a severe sentence that instills fear into anyone who subscribes to this quackery.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by 4X4

The arrogance of that guy is astounding. Not only is he a doctor, but he's also a lawyer. I hope he gets something unprecedented, like 15 years+.

I really hate what he said in an interview yesterday about the judge needing to explain all the court procedures to him because he doesn't have a lawyer and if the judge doesn't walk him through everything it could be grounds for an appeal. If you dont need doctors then I guess you should be fine without a lawyer too. Sink or swim smart guy.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

GGG do you have much experience with kids? It sounds like you don't because you have to be more cautious with children.

When my son has been sick he would rather sit on the couch and watch tv than play, so yeah he is less playfull but he is still with it. He still drinks, he will still eat his favorite foods (less than normal though), and he still communicates. He doesn't just lay in bed an moan.

March 6th should have been a hospital trip. Laying in bed moaning, not eating or drinking, showing unusual neurological symptoms is not what a regular sick kid does. Any sane person would be seeking actual medical help at that point, they didn't and are negligent.

A 19 month old kid not eating or drinking and showing unusual neurological symptoms is 100% NOT normal sickness.

Unusual neurological symptoms was what the physicians report stated that he was experiencing. Whereas Collet stated he was rubbing his face repeatedly in the same spot. This information was also gathered while they were being admitted to the emergency room during a high stress situation. The report from those excerpts was the physicians interpretation of what was happening as opposed what the parents experienced.

Yes I have experience with children, I would have taken children in earlier than March 6th. But that isnt the question being debated. It’s was that action negligent. You are being prejudiced by the outcome and and the testimony of an experts interpretation of what happened as well as mistaking the action you would have taken with negligence.

A 19 month old being lethargic and not talking and behaving a little funny is a pretty normal sickness.

[Minnie]

They can die in a hole. I'm not advocating anyone put them in said hole, they can just crawl off & die in one. *shrug*

[djsFlames]

These armchair judge threads are the worst thing on CP.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

These armchair judge threads are the worst thing on CP.

Naw

[CaptainCrunch]

Bump


https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/angry-...source=twitter

LETHBRIDGE, Alta. -- A medical examiner who did the autopsy on a 19-month-old toddler whose parents are on trial in his death clashed with the boy's father in court Monday.


David and Collet Stephan are charged with failing to provide the necessaries of life for their son Ezekiel, when the family lived in southwestern Alberta in 2012.


The trial previously heard that the couple thought Ezekiel was ill with the flu and treated him with alternative health remedies, even though a midwife and a naturopathic doctor suggested they get him medical treatment.

He sent samples of the toddler's cerebral spinal fluid and a biopsy of his right lung, which had an infectious mass, to a microbiologist, and that took time.
"There was no confusion about why he died," said Adeagbo.


"It was obvious it was bacterial meningitis and empyema. There was no trauma or anything that is suspicious."


David Stephan, who is acting as his own lawyer, spent over four hours grilling Adeagbo about why the doctor didn't have the fluid and tissue samples checked for a viral infection. Stephan also questioned why Adeagbo had the lab conduct a test that was only used for research at the time.


"You provided a diagnosis using a test that was not approved for diagnostic testing?" asked Stephan.


"No, because that diagnosis was already made. It is important to know exactly what caused it. That diagnosis was real," replied Adeagbo.


"And yet a test that is not approved for research purposes is being employed to determine if it was bacterial meningitis?" Stephan continued.


Adeagbo said the test had been used in the United States and Europe and was to provide a clearer picture of what happened with Ezekiel.


"I think you as the parent should be happy to actually know what caused the bacterial meningitis for this kid," Adeagbo told Stephan.


"To be frank, you should be happy to know the cause."

[OMG!WTF!]

You really want to rip your hair out...


https://www.meetthestephans.com/stan...2Xc6nj5FOIhrNs

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GGG

Unusual neurological symptoms was what the physicians report stated that he was experiencing. Whereas Collet stated he was rubbing his face repeatedly in the same spot. This information was also gathered while they were being admitted to the emergency room during a high stress situation. The report from those excerpts was the physicians interpretation of what was happening as opposed what the parents experienced.

Yes I have experience with children, I would have taken children in earlier than March 6th. But that isnt the question being debated. It’s was that action negligent. You are being prejudiced by the outcome and and the testimony of an experts interpretation of what happened as well as mistaking the action you would have taken with negligence.

A 19 month old being lethargic and not talking and behaving a little funny is a pretty normal sickness.

I don't think many people are arguing that the line for criminal negligence being the 11th isn't reasonable.

The line for being a total POS was at the very latest the 6th.

A 19 month old being lethargic and not talking and behaving a little funny [after a full week of being ill is NOT] a pretty normal sickness

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

You really want to rip your hair out...


https://www.meetthestephans.com/stan...2Xc6nj5FOIhrNs

What makes me angrier isn't the stuff that he's saying. Its the lineup of supporters on their facebook page etc, rolling out their big pharma, Vaccinations cause autism and other childhood diseases nut cases out there.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

You really want to rip your hair out...

https://www.meetthestephans.com/stan...2Xc6nj5FOIhrNs

These people disgust me. They brought their dead child in for care:

"They again placed him on the mattress in the back of the car and Collet stayed with him while David drove. Within minutes of departing, Ezekiel stopped breathing again. Collet again gave rescue breaths but this time Ezekiel did not resume breathing."

Collett then gave him about five chest compressions, according to the physician's report, and his breathing resumed briefly but the frequent pauses continued.

The couple called 911 again and stayed on speaker phone with the operator until an ambulance met their vehicle.
"While on the phone with 911, the parents gave full CPR for about 10 minutes until EMS arrived," the report states.

"Ezekiel had no spontaneous return of breathing and Collet reports he was blue by the time EMS arrived."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...port-1.3533174

So the kid is dead, and they have the audacity to disparage the good people who tried their best to bring him back to life. And the medical examiner, judge, the crown, the media and everyone else. They blame mishandling high potassium, and administering a drug, and to much saline, and bad note taking, and then go after the transplant team for having the audacity to consider using "infected" organs for transplant. #### these guys hard and forever. Go live in a cave and stop wasting our money. Infuriating.

[CaptainCrunch]

More from today's adventures in court.


This is heart breaking, to me the parents might have meant well and were captured by their stupidity but they sure as hell killed their kid.


https://calgaryherald.com/pmn/news-p...0481459http://

LETHBRIDGE, Alta. — A pediatric critical care specialist says the results of a CT scan on the brain of a boy whose parents are on trial in his death was one of the “most devastating” she had ever seen.

Burkholder testified that she directed the boy’s care for hours when he was flown to Calgary Children’s Hospital from Lethbridge.


The Crown is seeking to have Burkholder declared an expert witness at the judge-alone trial and her comments have not yet been entered as evidence.
Burkholder was asked by the Crown about her diagnosis of the boy.


She testified that the CT scan and blood tests in combination with her physical exam and speaking with the Stephans led her to believe that Ezekiel likely had bacterial meningitis.

At this point in the voir dire, David Stephan, who is representing himself, challenged Burkholder’s qualifications and ability to accurately read a CT scan.

[burn_this_city]

Pediatric critical care specialist vs Facebook fake medicine guru.