Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 05-23-2019, 02:26 PM   #261
White Out 403
Franchise Player
 
White Out 403's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cape Breton Island
Exp:
Default

I've changed my mind on this topic before and some posters here and elsewhere (reddit, talking heads on TV, friends in chatgroups) have swayed me back to a place where I find myself supporting unrestricted abortion again.

While I find gender selection abortion disgusting, and abortion as a birth control method immoral and reprehensible.... the harm done in enforcing a ban on these is too great. In the end we have to trust women and their doctors to make the right decision and not be deplorable human beings.

No easy solution exists but Canadian law seems to cause the least harm.

Last edited by White Out 403; 05-23-2019 at 05:02 PM.
White Out 403 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to White Out 403 For This Useful Post:
Old 05-23-2019, 02:26 PM   #262
Ark2
Franchise Player
 
Ark2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsYcNeT View Post
So you've ignored the 4 posts I made previous to that?
I've read every post in this thread. I'm not sure what point you think you have made that I should be addressing here. The affects of pregnancy on women has been brought up multiple times. My view is that the sacrifice a woman goes through while pregnant is great, but necessary because the right to life is the most important human right. I said as much myself earlier in this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ark2 View Post
I am against the death penalty, so in cases such as this, I believe that the rapist should spend the rest of his life in prison. At the same time, I believe that an unborn baby is a human being that is entitled to rights and protections and that does not change regardless of how it was conceived. I do not say this lightly, as I understand that bearing a child, even under the most ideal and consensual circumstances, is an incredible sacrifice that a woman is making. In instances of rape, I can only imagine what it is like. Having said that, I do believe that the right to life is the most important right and cannot be invalidated because of rape.
So I am not sure why exactly you think you are bringing some sort of unique angle to this discussion.

Quote:
Most anti-abortion sentiment stems from concern for a fetus, and the mothers concern is discarded.
According to who?

Quote:
Is this a real question? Yes. Obviously.
Was it unconscionable during WWII, even if it would have meant the allies losing?
Ark2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2019, 02:38 PM   #263
wittynickname
wittyusertitle
 
wittynickname's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsYcNeT View Post
I think you significantly overestimate the level of empathy in the general population.

Sacrificing your time, body and life is hard, posting anti-Abortion memes on Facebook and voting in regressives is easy.
Given that we can't even convince Americans to pay slightly higher taxes so that pregnant women can have access to healthcare, I'd guess most of these people aren't willing to sacrifice to keep a baby alive. They like the idea in theory but they don't actually walk that talk.
wittynickname is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to wittynickname For This Useful Post:
Old 05-23-2019, 03:00 PM   #264
PsYcNeT
Franchise Player
 
PsYcNeT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Marseilles Of The Prairies
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ark2 View Post
According to who?
You literally just hand-waved the suffering of pregnancy. Who indeed.

Quote:
Was it unconscionable during WWII, even if it would have meant the allies losing?
Is WWII literally the last valid example you can think of? This is like the opposite of Godwinning an argument.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm View Post
Settle down there, Temple Grandin.
PsYcNeT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2019, 03:13 PM   #265
Izzle
First Line Centre
 
Izzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Exp:
Default

AFAIK, the only women in this thread are wittynickname, peanut and girlysports. My sister lives in Washington DC and she is part of an online group/board of women professionals (lawyers, nurses, accountants, etc), and the majority of the women there are pro-choice.
Izzle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2019, 05:03 PM   #266
wittynickname
wittyusertitle
 
wittynickname's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzle View Post
AFAIK, the only women in this thread are wittynickname, peanut and girlysports. My sister lives in Washington DC and she is part of an online group/board of women professionals (lawyers, nurses, accountants, etc), and the majority of the women there are pro-choice.
I've mostly peeked into the thread but otherwise stayed quiet. Because you aren't going to convince someone to change their mind in a thread on the internet. Until we as Americans can agree that healthcare is a right, until we as Americans can agree that $7.25 is not a livable minimum wage, until we as Americans can agree that it's worth a few extra dollars in taxes every year to ensure that children in poverty can eat, that children deserve an education, until we can do something about the fact that children in Flint are still being poisoned with lead--every other argument in here is a non-starter for me.

We as Americans don't treat living humans with the care that these people want to treat zygotes, and until conservatives start treating actual existing humans with the respect they have for fetuses, I just don't have much to say about their arguments.

Last edited by wittynickname; 05-23-2019 at 05:07 PM.
wittynickname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2019, 09:06 AM   #267
troutman
Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer
 
troutman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Winebar Kensington
Exp:
Default

The full statement of Ursula K. Le Guin: many tweets in a row:

“They asked me to tell you what it was like to be twenty and pregnant in 1950
and when you tell your boyfriend you’re pregnant,
he tells you about a friend of his in the army whose girl told him she was pregnant,

..."We all #####ed her, so who knows who the father is?”
And he laughs at the good joke….

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...042360832.html

What was it like,
if you were planning to go to graduate school and get a degree and earn a living so you could support yourself and do the work you loved— what it was like to be a senior at Radcliffe and pregnant and if you bore this child,
this child which the law demanded you bear and would then call “unlawful,” “illegitimate,”
this child whose father denied it …
What was it like? […]

It’s like this:

...if I had dropped out of college,
thrown away my education,
depended on my parents …
if I had done all that,
which is what the anti-abortion people want me to have done,
I would have borne a child for them, …
the authorities,
the theorists,
the fundamentalists;

I would have born a child for them,
their child.

But I would not have born my own first child,
or second child,
or third child.
My children.

The life of that fetus would have prevented,
would have aborted,
three other fetuses …
the three wanted children,

the three I had with my husband—
whom, if I had not aborted the unwanted one,
I would never have met …
I would have been an “unwed mother” of a three-year-old in California,
without work,
with half an education,
living off her parents….

But it is the children I have to come back to,
my children
Elisabeth,
Caroline,
Theodore,
my joy,
my pride,
my loves.
If I had not broken the law and aborted that life nobody wanted,
they would have been aborted by a cruel, bigoted, and senseless law.

They would never have been born.
This thought I cannot bear.

What was it like, in the Dark Ages when abortion was a crime, for the girl whose dad couldn’t borrow cash, as my dad could?

What was it like for the girl who couldn’t even tell her dad, because he would go crazy with shame and rage?
Who couldn’t tell her mother?
Who had to go alone to that filthy room and put herself body and soul into the hands of a professional criminal? –

because that is what every doctor who did an abortion was, whether he was an extortionist or an idealist.

You know what it was like for her.
You know and I know;
that is why we are here.
We are not going back to the Dark Ages.

We are not going to let anybody in this country have that kind of power over any girl or woman.
There are great powers, outside the government and in it, trying to legislate the return of darkness.
We are not great powers.
But we are the light.
Nobody can put us out.

May all of you shine very bright and steady, today and always.”
__________________
https://www.mergenlaw.com/
http://cjsw.com/program/fossil-records/
twitter/instagram @troutman1966
troutman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to troutman For This Useful Post:
Old 05-24-2019, 12:12 PM   #268
woob
#1 Goaltender
 
woob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Out 403 View Post
I've changed my mind on this topic before and some posters here and elsewhere (reddit, talking heads on TV, friends in chatgroups) have swayed me back to a place where I find myself supporting unrestricted abortion again.

While I find gender selection abortion disgusting, and abortion as a birth control method immoral and reprehensible.... the harm done in enforcing a ban on these is too great. In the end we have to trust women and their doctors to make the right decision and not be deplorable human beings.

No easy solution exists but Canadian law seems to cause the least harm.
I just want to give you props for this post. I know you get the gears a lot on this forum (rightly so, in cases) but it takes a mature and aware person to be open to having their mind changed on a topic like this and share it with us. Kudos to you.
woob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2019, 01:09 PM   #269
BigBrodieFan
Franchise Player
 
BigBrodieFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: H-Town, Texas
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach View Post
It's a big issue in the past few weeks. I don't really want to get into the Alabama BS, as that's an obvious disgusting troll job to try and overturn existing law and there is plenty of room in the America Is No Good Thread for that.

There are a lot of opinions and emotions involved in this issue, and those opinions include opinions on who should even have an opinion (or at least one that actually affects policy). But it seems pretty rare that I see someone with actual experience share theirs. I'll state my own position and experience first.
Well done. Thanks for putting your personal experience 'out there' eloquently. I am sure many men feel the same way, and it's much better to have honest discussions about the subject of abortion, than to just say 'Pro-Life' or 'Pro-Choice.' People who insist the answer is cut and dry baffle me. Everyone who faces this horrible decision goes through their own personal thought process, fears, stress, etc.

When I think of abortion, I don't think it's a choice I would make- but what other women do with their bodies is none of my business. Having said that, there are definitely some caveats in my thought process.

I remember when George Tiller was murdered, the doctor who performed partial-birth abortions for women who were up to full term in Kansas. I was living in the state at the time, and with his abortion clinic and those Westboro Baptist lunatics, it was a complete circus.

I will admit, I wasn't entirely sad that he was shot. I saw the websites and the pictures of full term dead babies, and they made me sick. I mean let's face it.. the idea that a woman's health is at stake so bad that she needs to have an abortion when her baby is viable outside the womb is pretty rare. In fact, I thought that a partial birth abortion would be more traumatic for a woman. Either way, she'd have to deliver the child, so I just didn't understand why a woman would want to make that choice. I completely understood first term abortion reasoning, and even early second term, but I didn't understand the third/full term reasoning.

But then... my ex sister-in-law got pregnant. And, she seemed to have a healthy baby. But in the beginning of her third semester, she found out her baby had some serious issues. They found out that her baby would basically be born breathing, but would be, for lack of a better term, in a permanently vegetative state.

She decided she wanted to continue with the pregnancy because 'God' told her to. I thought she was brave. And then I watched her baby grow up to be 7 years old. He was in a wheelchair is whole life that held his head in place. He made guttural sounds once in a while. He had 16 operations by the time he was 3. He died as he lived, in agony.

And while I still think she is a hero, as she loved him more than anything, I don't think I would have made that choice for myself of the child. And, I wouldn't want to begin to tell someone else in that situation what to do or think.
BigBrodieFan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to BigBrodieFan For This Useful Post:
Old 05-24-2019, 01:48 PM   #270
Sliver
evil of fart
 
Sliver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
The gender near-parity in pro-life sentiment is easy to explain: Women are more religious than men.

64 per cent of American women say they pray daily, compared with 43 per cent of American men. In Canada, those figures are 30 per cent and 28 per cent (which helps explain why abortion is much less of an issue here).

https://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/22/...r-gap-is-wide/

If this seems surprising, it's because the spokespeople who purport to speak on behalf of women are atypically irreligious, while the most prominent proponents of religious faith are atypically male.
I'm so blown away by this statistic that I haven't stopped thinking about it since you posted it a week ago. To think grown ups that I interact with out here in the real world get down on their knees, clasp their hands together, and mumble out a prayer to a god they think can hear them and cares about them enough to intervene in their lives is astounding.

I was raised areligous. Obviously I've heard of praying and know what it's all about, but I've never thought of it as something a grown person would do. I picture kids in their jammies saying a prayer before bed. Fully grown adults, though? That's seriously weird.
Sliver is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Sliver For This Useful Post:
Old 05-24-2019, 01:50 PM   #271
FanIn80
GOAT!
 
FanIn80's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
Bodily autonomy. Completely subsidized and available contraception. Guaranteed and enforced 100% spousal support from absentee fathers and mothers. Generous subsidies and tax relief for both single and partnered mothers and fathers.

Not sure why this is so hard.
I added the parts you left out. Remember... the underlying goal is equality, not more than.

Just because negative things happen more often on one side of the fence than the other, it doesn’t mean both sides don’t deserve the same desired outcome.
FanIn80 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to FanIn80 For This Useful Post:
Old 05-24-2019, 04:41 PM   #272
rubecube
Franchise Player
 
rubecube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria
Exp:
Default

Whoops.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30870293

Quote:
OBJECTIVE:
To assess whether indicators of limited access to services explained changes in rates of second-trimester abortion after implementation of a restrictive abortion law in Texas.

CONCLUSION:
Increases in second-trimester abortion after the law's implementation were due to women having more limited access to abortion services.
rubecube is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rubecube For This Useful Post:
Old 05-26-2019, 10:45 AM   #273
Scroopy Noopers
Pent-up
 
Scroopy Noopers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Plutanamo Bay.
Exp:
Default

Still relevant.

Scroopy Noopers is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Scroopy Noopers For This Useful Post:
Old 05-27-2019, 02:24 PM   #274
longsuffering
First Line Centre
 
longsuffering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiftyBelow View Post
It saddens me that our culture is so quick to disregard human life.
Yeah, it saddens me too.



We could also talk about the disregard for human life (civilians, children) associated with drone strikes or war but that would be too far.

Does regard for human life end at birth amongst pro-lifers?
longsuffering is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to longsuffering For This Useful Post:
Old 06-06-2019, 12:52 PM   #275
Textcritic
Acerbic Cyberbully
 
Textcritic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: back in Chilliwack
Exp:
Default

This just came across my radar, but seemed presently relevant.

There has been a tonne of controversy surrounding Planned Parenthood director-turned-anti abortion activist Abby Johnson with the recent release of Unplanned: a film adaptation of her memoire.



With all the talk here of arguing on the basis of emotional appeal, the Abby Johnson case is significant.

The Convert
Conversion Story: How Bryan's Planned Parenthood director became a pro-life celebrity
Sorting Fact from Fiction in the Story of Pro-life Celebrity Abby Johnson

Responses to criticism by Johnson and the filmmakers:
Yes, I Really Did See An Ultrasound-Guided Abortion That Made Me Pro-Life
Media Scrambles To Discredit Abby Johnson’s Pro-Life Conversion, And Fails
__________________
Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls

Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
"The Lying Pen of Scribes" Ancient Manuscript Forgeries Project
Textcritic is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Textcritic For This Useful Post:
Old 06-28-2019, 09:50 AM   #276
Lanny_McDonald
Franchise Player
 
Lanny_McDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

And so it begins.

A woman who miscarried after being shot five times in the abdomen has been indicted with manslaughter in Alabama.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/shot-amer...233010860.html
Lanny_McDonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2019, 10:09 AM   #277
KTrain
ALL ABOARD!
 
KTrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Exp:
Default

I keep seeing this story come up without the detail that she's the one that initiated the fight and would not back down from it. The person who shot her was ruled to have done it in self-defence.

It's still ridiculous but she's not an innocent person either.
KTrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2019, 10:11 AM   #278
sa226
#1 Goaltender
 
sa226's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Back in Calgary!!
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era View Post
And so it begins.

A woman who miscarried after being shot five times in the abdomen has been indicted with manslaughter in Alabama.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/shot-amer...233010860.html
Its important to read this article and not gloss over the headline, which is definitely click bait.

I think the bigger discussion point is American gun laws and culture. You can shoot someone 5 times and get off free? In the name of self defense?

How much of an aggressor was this woman, that she needed to be shot 5 times?

I'm not going to wade into the discussion, but the content is not as clear as the headline.
sa226 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2019, 10:21 AM   #279
Wormius
Franchise Player
 
Wormius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Somewhere down the crazy river.
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era View Post
And so it begins.

A woman who miscarried after being shot five times in the abdomen has been indicted with manslaughter in Alabama.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/shot-amer...233010860.html

It is fair to say that Alabama has fallen to ISIS?
Wormius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2019, 10:27 AM   #280
CorsiHockeyLeague
Franchise Player
 
CorsiHockeyLeague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormius View Post
It is fair to say that Alabama has fallen to ISIS?
Fallen to? When was Alabama not like this?
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
CorsiHockeyLeague is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:04 AM.

Calgary Flames
2023-24




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021