It’s where the missing scene in episode 4 is pretty important.
Once Sansa knows about Jon she would never bend the knee. Varys without knowing doesn’t betray Dany. Jon without knowing doesn’t pull away at key moments. Dany not knowing means she doesn’t have a rival with a better claim on her side.
So I think a bunch of key things change if Jon doesn’t know or even if he just doesn’t tell Sansa. Bran’s statement of its up to you is interesting in light of the ending. Did Jon telling his siblings casue the burning of kings landing and Bran eventually becoming king?
There was literally no one better than Bronn as Master of Coin? Like absolutely no single person better qualified than a damned sell sword with a big mouth?
Bran's rule ain't going to last long haha
With the Hound dead there is no person left in Westeros better at anything than Bronn.
So yeah
I think Bronn inherited the role due to his reigning over Highgarden and the Reach. Yes, the Lannister army sacked Highgarden for all of the gold stored there. But it is the capital of the most fertile and prosperous region of Westeros that remains, since the gold mines near Casterly Rock have run out. The crown would need the support of the Reach, and a good way of ensuring that support and loyalty would be installing it's lord as Master of Coin (and most likely Warden of the South).
It’s where the missing scene in episode 4 is pretty important.
Once Sansa knows about Jon she would never bend the knee. Varys without knowing doesn’t betray Dany. Jon without knowing doesn’t pull away at key moments. Dany not knowing means she doesn’t have a rival with a better claim on her side.
So I think a bunch of key things change if Jon doesn’t know or even if he just doesn’t tell Sansa. Bran’s statement of its up to you is interesting in light of the ending. Did Jon telling his siblings casue the burning of kings landing and Bran eventually becoming king?
Sansa’s attitude was no different before knowing and after.
Varys betraying Dany seemed to have no consequences to anyone but him. His notes were never mentioned.
Dany having a rival was never acted on by her at all. At the end she wanted Jon as much as before.
For such a major plot revelation, Jon’s lineage was rather inconsequential in the end.
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Yes, I suppose I am. By watching the season I guess.
Did him knowing his lineage end up resulting in the game of telephone tag that informed Daenerys of his true lineage?
Did her knowledge of his right to the throne affect her perception of him as a threat?
Could Tyrion and Jon have the conversation they did if he didn’t know his true lineage?
He would have not been operating within the same set of known circumstances if he did not know his lineage, therefore in my opinion it is not reasonable to suppose he would act the same.
I watched the season too and you have to admit that is a pretty weak cause and effect. She didn’t treat Jon as much of a threat. Otherwise he couldn’t have killed her so easily.
He killed Dany because of what she did. And the danger she posed. Not because he was a Targaryen.
Disappointing end to such a good show, this whole season for the most part has been more of a letdown than anything.
The ending was so predictable its almost sad.
So many story lines they just let die without any real explanation, they could have done so much more with Jon's heritage, the notes Vary's left etc.
Spoiler ahead:
NSFW!
I thought for SURE they would have had Greyworm vs Jon or at lest some sort of equivalent displayed one last time. I was really hoping Greyworm would try to execute Jon via Drogon "drakaris" on display for everyone, but then because Jon is actually Aegon he isn't burnt and everyone sort of finds out in heroic fashion that he's not a Stark.
I watched the season too and you have to admit that is a pretty weak cause and effect. She didn’t treat Jon as much of a threat. Otherwise he couldn’t have killed her so easily.
He killed Dany because of what she did. And the danger she posed. Not because he was a Targaryen.
Yeah, we can pretty much disagree on that.
Dany multiple times talked about how many people loved Jon, as compared to her. He several times had to assure her that he didn’t want the throne and that she was his queen.
Varys had a stack of notes, and there sure were a lot of ravens in the shot around the Red Keep immediately before she snapped.
So much of the plot of the entire season was them beating the viewers over the head with Jon’s lineage.
Like I say, might as well just disagree. I guess I see Jon as more than a 2 piece puzzle.
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Count me among the people that didn't like this finale. I get that they were trying to do away with common tropes but goddamn, Bran getting the throne over Jon Snow kinda sucks. We have this whole character arc with Jon and he grows througout the show, starting as a peon in the Nights Watch, then uniting with Wildlings, then becoming Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, then being killed, resurrected, taking back Winterfell becoming King in the North, uniting with the largest force the world has seen to defeat the greatest threat the world has ever seen, then discovers he's actually the true born heir, then sacks Kings Landing, then has to kill his aunt/lover/ally in front of her dragon...all to end up basically back where he started. Except now the wall has a giant hole blown it. Honestly, why was he banished? To satisfy the eunuch army that left right after? Because Yara Greyjoy who did sweet f all besides get her fleet wrecked, get captured, and then bounce back to the iron islands avoiding all the fighting demanded it? And speaking of doing nothing, Bran does actually nothing I seriously don't get how he's qualified in any way to be King. He's not charismatic, doesn't inspire people, won no battles, and really didn't even have to make a, as in one, difficult choice. His talents seem to be not using his amazing warging/time skills for any tactical advantage and watching his friends (Hodor, that brother sister pair, Theon) die for him while not giving a crap. Contrast that to Jon who's had to sacrifice and make tough choices the whole series, to have his throne snatched by Bran who's been tripping on acid the last 5 years in pretty whack.
Showrunners can do what they want and I'm not going to say that the series is ruined or anything but Bran being King is pretty terrible.
Last edited by DiracSpike; 05-21-2019 at 09:22 AM.
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My wife before the show was asking me who I wanted to see get the throne or who I thought would and really I didn't care. There are a few characters that had compelling arguments but ultimately I was prepared to accept whatever the writers decided on and Bran makes some sense. I didn't love the finale because there was just so much that wasn't explained and while I fully accept the acceleration required to end the show this season it doesn't mean it's as satisfying to me as it would have been had they taken even one more season to reach the same conclusions. Given 6 episodes I'm not sure how much more they could have done and the real shame to me is that such a great show didn't get the final seasons it deserved. Still loved the show from the first time I watched it until the ending on the weekend as it was a hell of a ride.
Count me among the people that didn't like this finale. I get that they were trying to do away with common tropes but goddamn, Bran getting the throne over Jon Snow kinda sucks. We have this whole character arc with Jon and he grows througout the show, starting as a peon in the Nights Watch, then uniting with Wildlings, then becoming Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, then being killed, resurrected, taking back Winterfell becoming King in the North, uniting with the largest force the world has seen to defeat the greatest threat the world has ever seen, then discovers he's actually the true born heir, then sacks Kings Landing, then has to kill his aunt/lover/ally in front of her dragon...all to end up basically back where he started. Except now the wall has a giant hole blown it. Honestly, why was he banished? To satisfy the eunuch army that left right after? Because Yara Greyjoy who did sweet f all besides get her fleet wrecked, get captured, and then bounce back to the iron islands avoiding all the fighting demanded it? And speaking of doing nothing, Bran does actually nothing I seriously don't get how he's qualified in any way to be King. He's not charismatic, doesn't inspire people, won no battles, and really didn't even have to make a, as in one, difficult choice. His talents seem to be not using his amazing warging/time skills for any tactical advantage and watching his friends (Hodor, that brother sister pair, Theon) die for him while not giving a crap. Contrast that to Jon who's had to sacrifice and make tough choices the whole series, to have his throne snatched by Bran who's been tripping on acid the last 5 years in pretty whack.
Showrunners can do what they want and I'm not going to say that the series is ruined or anything but Bran being King is pretty terrible.
You nailed my feelings on this with your post. Bang on.
Yeah the Bran character to me was really an undeveloped character in a lot of ways, and there just wasn't enough to get excited about.
I guess making him King made some sense, I mean at the end of the day, he could see everything everywhere and also see the future. Plus he couldn't father children, so the whole direct heirs thing that lead to Joffrey and Tommin was gone.
Looking back, was Jon Snow ever really a leader who could be king. I mean he was Lord Commander of the Watch, but he really couldn't wait to give that up. When he was King of the North, he went tearing off to visit Daeny's. I just didn't see him as the guy who could sit on the throne and be king no matter what his lineage was.
Frankly no one was going to accept the last surviving Lannister on the throne, that family was poison to the kingdoms, and same with a Targayon, the last two were pretty much butchers. That leaves someone from a lesser house, or a Stark, with the Stark Lineage. Which left Sansa and Arya.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
My wife before the show was asking me who I wanted to see get the throne or who I thought would and really I didn't care. There are a few characters that had compelling arguments but ultimately I was prepared to accept whatever the writers decided on and Bran makes some sense. I didn't love the finale because there was just so much that wasn't explained and while I fully accept the acceleration required to end the show this season it doesn't mean it's as satisfying to me as it would have been had they taken even one more season to reach the same conclusions. Given 6 episodes I'm not sure how much more they could have done and the real shame to me is that such a great show didn't get the final seasons it deserved. Still loved the show from the first time I watched it until the ending on the weekend as it was a hell of a ride.
This is also bang on IMO.
I didn't hate the last couple of seasons like many seem to, but it was definitely rushed in a way we weren't used to with this show. Like just in the last episode with how they jumped from Jon killing Dany to it suddenly being weeks/months later. So many details could have been fleshed out there with more episodes and scenes. And that's just one small instance.
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Makes much more sense than having him survive and then leave to live peacefully with his family... then suddenly show up in Kings Landing and end up the Grand Maester with only a few months experience and still an apprentice.
Wait, so how was "The Bells" not as thrilling in nearly the same way as the finale of season 6? Both aimed at shock and awe from a similar angle and brought that in spades.
So strange that one is 1st and the other 71st...
Was it the musical piece during the blowing up of the Sept? Both had simillar build up sequences where everything was slowed down before the carnage of the events unfolded. "The Bells" had Cleganebowl, the most anticipated duel in the series.
I think a portion of fans were so ticked at episode three that they allowed that bitterness to carry over, leading to an under-appreciation of what the separate events of episodes 5-6 brought, which I honestly think was on par with the bigger episodes of earlier seasons in many ways.
Cinematically incredible, but the set-up was mind-bottling.
1. Euron killing the Rhaegal by 'surprise' (ignoring a fundamental aspect of how 'eyesite' works - if you can see me, I can see you...).
2. Dani demonstrates incredible discipline and restraint in not simply swooping down and destroying Euron's fleet...which turns out to be super easy for her to do in the next episode.
3. Euron destroying the fleet, but opting to simply kidnap Missundai (sp) and letting the rest of the soldiers wash safely up on shore.
4. Appealing to Cercei's 'love for her children' hasn't worked the last 53 times, but maybe the 54th will be different?
Rhaegal's death could have been use so much better to justify Dani's 'madness'. It was hard to feel invested in the final battle or even Dani's heel turn when so much logic/common sense had been thrown out the window.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royle9
Spoiler ahead:
NSFW!
I thought for SURE they would have had Greyworm vs Jon or at lest some sort of equivalent displayed one last time. I was really hoping Greyworm would try to execute Jon via Drogon "drakaris" on display for everyone, but then because Jon is actually Aegon he isn't burnt and everyone sort of finds out in heroic fashion that he's not a Stark.
I think they ran out of CGI funds...
A Greyworm vs. Jon trial by combat would have been compelling (lots of ways for it to play out). Jon making a final choice to refuse the crown (when it was actually available), and returning to live with the free-folk would make more sense than his fake exile. He didn't refuse leadership of the Night's Watch or being King of the North when thrust upon him (while the undead threat still loomed) - I would have liked to see him actually refuse this power when it was actually in his grasp
The Dothraki's continued existence after their [strategically silly] apparent obliteration in Winterfell was also an odd and unnecessary loose end. It wouldn't have been too hard to build up a lone powerful Dothraki warrior/commander who would also demand vengeance for Dani's 'betrayal'. Greyworm and Dothraki vs. Jon and Tyrion (needing to once again find a proxy for his trial by combat...perhaps appealing to Bronn, who might finally refuse, paving the way for Arya to volunteer for a tag team show down alongside her brother Jon). Arya + Jon might be a little fan servicy, but it would have been real excitement that was otherwise lacking in the finale.
Tyrion's 2 season run of giving terrible advice made it hard to swallow his monologue being the thing to put Bran on the throne. Perhaps not lumping Jon's 'exile' into the whole process could have cleaned up that silly bit of epilogue.
I didn't hate the last couple of seasons like many seem to, but it was definitely rushed in a way we weren't used to with this show. Like just in the last episode with how they jumped from Jon killing Dany to it suddenly being weeks/months later. So many details could have been fleshed out there with more episodes and scenes. And that's just one small instance.
Yeah that and maybe the happy ending tone. I just felt given the majority of the series the way main characters evil or good would get killed off at any time, avoiding the pitfall of movies where main characters miraculously escape impending doom it was a little disappointing to see that creep into this final season especially. I'm not morbid in that I wanted characters to die just to see everything burn but it would have been nice to stick with the original pattern where a lot of the "good" characters don't make it. I would have been fine even with an ending where Cersei conquered all and ended up on the throne as it would have fit in with the original seasons where the bad guys prevailed and life wasn't fair.
Dany multiple times talked about how many people loved Jon, as compared to her. He several times had to assure her that he didn’t want the throne and that she was his queen.
Varys had a stack of notes, and there sure were a lot of ravens in the shot around the Red Keep immediately before she snapped.
So much of the plot of the entire season was them beating the viewers over the head with Jon’s lineage.
Like I say, might as well just disagree. I guess I see Jon as more than a 2 piece puzzle.
You were saying Jon killed Dany because he knew he was a Targaryen. That really is my question as yes, they beat people over the head with his lineage but my question is exactly why was it important? In the end, it was interesting for the viewers for a while but why did Bran think it was so important?
If you want to say that Bran that insisted Jon know of his lineage because that would lead to a series of events that would lead to Dany turning full villain, well that would be an interesting take. It’s a very circuitous route as she was already going down that path if you believe the writers. And that would be like going back in time to be sure Hitler came into power, so that you could be sure he was defeated.
Or it would imply that Bran wanted to be King. Fun to speculate but that is all it is, as the show provides no context for believing this.
I just felt given the majority of the series the way main characters evil or good would get killed off at any time, avoiding the pitfall of movies where main characters miraculously escape impending doom it was a little disappointing to see that creep into this final season especially. I'm not morbid in that I wanted characters to die just to see everything burn but it would have been nice to stick with the original pattern where a lot of the "good" characters don't make it.
if most/all of the good guys need to make it to the end for plot reasons then fine, I don't think GoT should be obligated to kill major characters only because that's what it's famous for. but for the love of R'hllor, at least stop putting them in positions where death should be certain, only to have them saved by a camera cut or a single last second sword swipe. if you want to get Brienne/Tormund/Jaime/Podrick/Samwell to the very end, then don't put them at the vanguard of a literal tidal wave of zombies and have them buried in them nonstop until dawn, but only come away with a few bruises because of lucky camera cuts or sword swipes from allies.
that 2nd type of save is so annoying. you're getting gang banged on the ground by 8 zombies but a single sword slash is enough for them to all get taken out at once so that you can stand up and look your savior in the eye before continuing the fight and getting pinned the exact same way again.
same thing with Arya running through the streets, go ahead and do that to show the ground level horror, but don't put her right beside stone-exploding dragonfire and underneath collapsing buildings that kill every last thing in the vicinity except her. unless she's yelling "Not Today!!!" at the god of death the whole time and he's forced to obey for some reason.
You were saying Jon killed Dany because he knew he was a Targaryen. That really is my question as yes, they beat people over the head with his lineage but my question is exactly why was it important? In the end, it was interesting for the viewers for a while but why did Bran think it was so important?
If you want to say that Bran that insisted Jon know of his lineage because that would lead to a series of events that would lead to Dany turning full villain, well that would be an interesting take. It’s a very circuitous route as she was already going down that path if you believe the writers. And that would be like going back in time to be sure Hitler came into power, so that you could be sure he was defeated.
Or it would imply that Bran wanted to be King. Fun to speculate but that is all it is, as the show provides no context for believing this.
Why was it important for Jon and then others to know his true heritage? First of all it destroys them as a couple (in his mind) which would otherwise solidify power and mitigate her worst impulses. He can no longer go along with her out of love. Second it creates a threat to him and the Starks if Daeny feels undermined by his true claim. I’d say both of those are huge points. Without those Jon has a moral quandary but offset by love.
Last edited by edslunch; 05-21-2019 at 11:39 AM.
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Why was it important for Jon and then others to know his true heritage? First of all it destroys them as a couple (in his mind) as a way to solidify power and mitigate her worst impulses. He can no longer go along with her out of love. Second it creates a threat to him and the Starks if Daeny feels undermined by his true claim. I’d say both of those are huge points. Without those Jon has a moral quandary but offset by love.
The Jon we know would still have killed Dany in this situation. Him being a Targaryen made no difference here.
Despite Jon being her nephew, Dany still loved him.
Nothing changed.
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