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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At le pub...
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Originally Posted by djsFlames
What else needs to be said about the night king and army of the dead?.
We have no reason for why after 8,000 years the NK woke up. We don’t know why he wanted Bran, or what killing Bran would accomplish. We don’t know why he wanted sacrificial babies. Why he made symbols out of body parts. What would he have done if he killed Bran?
This isn’t a secondary villain: this is the big bad from the opening scene of the pilot. Jon Snow’s whole raison d’etre. The source of magic and mystery throughout the show. A guy who can kill dragons with lances. Ok, forget that part.
The NK deserved better treatment, as did the WW, and so from my POV did the whole series.
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I just think the writing is catering to the new broader fanbase it's acquired a bit and that is why the narrative approach has changed so much. Also wouldn't surprise me if they are saving more characters now because it's in their own financial best interest.
The core who started with the show were the book ppl, nerdy fantasy readers who lived for the details. It's so popular in the mainstream now... There are folks watching it who would never in a million years have picked up one of the books. They want to spend time with the people they like after almost a decade, see big action and have a couple easy to follow backstabbings or other dramatic twists and probably are going to glaze over if they try something too complex like that bran/lord of light thing.
HBO knows they'll probably devour spinoffs involving the characters they like too. HBO'S new mandate is to move from boutique into large scale content generation to fuel a streaming service. If the characters all survived that bloodbath it wouldn't surprise me if most of the core come through alive and in 5 years you'll be watching the equivalent of the Sansa chronicles as she navigates a diplomatic posting in braavos or something that's like the GOT version of the bachelorette and there are 3 or 4 other shows hitting different niches.
Regardless has been a fantastic ride. When you like a book a lot it's pretty much a dream to see HBO pick it up and put this much into it and it'll spawn tonnes of imaginative fantasy writing, TV and movies in the years to come with how influential its been. And it's still fun to watch so regardless no complaints.
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One thing I like about Game of Thrones is that it doesn't spoon feed you answers.
I liked that NK didn't talk, he didn't need to. The fact there was so much unknown about him made him scarier. The Cylons in BSG were less scary when we knew their backstory and were humanized, Richard Albert was no longer interesting after learning his backstory. Let their actions, Bran and folklore be the information on the white walkers.
As for the consequence free stealing ofHeartstbane: (1) it's obviously something Sam is worried about as he asked for a pardon; and (2) I have little doubt there would have been consequences if the consequences of not bending the knee didn't come into coflict. That's something I like about GoT, cause and effect can come into conflict with each other, meaning there isn't always a payoff, just like in life.
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I guess for me the best way to sum up that episode was that was the tensest episode of TV I've seen where I still knew what the outcome would be. It was obvious that none of the truly major characters were going to die, they telegraphed that by leaving four hours of content after this episode. It was also obvious as soon as Melissandre showed up that Arya was gonna kill the Night King. I don't think there'd be much audience to see the Night King marching on Kings Landing, especially since without dragons there's really no shot he could die. The remaining Starks weren't going to die, they need to deal with the fallout of Jon being their uncle and not their half brother. Tyrion and Jaime have to deal with Bronn coming for them. Daenerys needs to fulfill her previous vision of that scene in Kings Landing at the destroyed Red Keep.
The disappointing thing is minor characters like Sam or Brienne, who we really don't need anymore for the plot, were not only allowed to live, but live under pretty unbelievable circumstances. It wouldn't have pissed too many off to see a few of them die. I'm not holding out much hope the Night King and White Walkers storyline will see much more than this. And Bran was useless, but he was always useless so no biggie there. Hopefully he gets to warg into the Mountain and kill Cersei that way so at the very least his only big contribution to the show wasn't witnessing incest.
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We have no reason for why after 8,000 years the NK woke up. We don’t know why he wanted Bran, or what killing Bran would accomplish. We don’t know why he wanted sacrificial babies. Why he made symbols out of body parts. What would he have done if he killed Bran?
This isn’t a secondary villain: this is the big bad from the opening scene of the pilot. Jon Snow’s whole raison d’etre. The source of magic and mystery throughout the show. A guy who can kill dragons with lances. Ok, forget that part.
The NK deserved better treatment, as did the WW, and so from my POV did the whole series.
What's your limit - 3 posts on every page? 5?
We get it. You don't like it. Post more, maybe.
AltaGuy has a magnetic personality and exudes positive energy, which is infectious to those around him. He has an unparalleled ability to communicate with people, whether he is speaking to a room of three or an arena of 30,000.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At le pub...
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Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce
What's your limit - 3 posts on every page? 5?
We get it. You don't like it. Post more, maybe.
I’d apologize to your sensitive nature, but don’t give two hoots. I’m just into it.
I think the ultimate point of game of thrones was to have the battle of Winterfell, that's the song of Fire and Ice. I think GRRM wanted to do the typical fantasy ending where, against all odds, good triumphs over evil, but he wanted to get there in a way that made that battle feel organic and that the viewer couldn't just sit there, knowing that it's all just a ride and the good guys were going to win. He made sure we saw the good guys lose bad many times, subverted our expectations of who was or wasn't good, and sold us on a world that wasn't restricted by the standard tropes of fantasy.
It really pulled me into the battle not knowing how it would end, it all seems a bit more obvious in retrospective (especially with how GoT is becoming more like a typical show), but I knew this was still GRRMs story at heart and I don't think anything will recreate that feeling I had watching that army stare off into blackness, waiting for the army of the dead to show up and having no idea what would happen next. It was the most anxious I'll ever be watching a TV show in my adult life and I expect that to be a higher water mark that won't be repeated.
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Post is spoilered for people avoiding the preview of next week's episode.
Spoiler!
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Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan
No Podrick. This makes me a little sad. He didn't even get a hero's death.
For what it's worth I think Jamie and Brienne are hidden by Sansa & Arya in the screenshot you've got. Possibly Pod as well.
Here is another capture from a slightly different point. If you look right above Sansa's head you can see there are people standing in front of the crowd. I think that's Brienne and Jamie (Jamie's hard to spot now with his darker hair). It also looks like maybe Pod is between Arya & Sansa.
I rewatched the last bit of it last night, right after the NK got Arya'd they showed the dead...uh dying. Pod was standing next to Jamie against a wall. I think he made it.
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That link seems to beg that nothing goes untouched, but that's not realistic in TV planning. We'd have way too many minor storylines that no one really cares about and go on for seasons upon seasons upon seasons.
I think you missed the point of the article. The point was that in the first 4 seasons, when somebody ####ed up they paid a steep price. When they challenged the wrong person, showed poor judgement, or lead with their heart and not their head, blood was spilled. Whether they were a good person or an audience favourite was irrelevant. Every choice had consequences. Folly was punished.
Dany saved the lamb women from rape > Khal Drogo had to defend her and got injured > Dany had one of those lamb women treat his injury > The witch poisoned him.
Dany was dumb. A high price was paid.
Caitelyn captures Tyrion > Jaime attacks Ned and his men > escalation > Ned gets executed.
Caitelyn and Ned were dumb. A high price was paid.
Robb falls in love > Walder Frey feels slighted and joins up with Lannisters > the Red Wedding.
Robb was dumb. A high price was paid.
Mormont puts too much stock in his alliance with Craster > his men become mutinous > Mormont gets killed.
Mormont showed poor judgment. A high price was paid.
Etc. etc.
That's not the case anymore. Characters in GoT make all kinds of dumb decisions and show poor judgement and they escape unscathed. They have plot armour. Just like in 95 per cent of drama.
If the decision to hide in the Winterfell crypts happened in an episode in season 3, you can bet one or more named characters would have been killed. Probably someone who didn't deserve it, like Missandei. Or Gilly, to throw an ironic light on Sam's decision to be brave and fight outside. Now, nobody of any importance suffers. Bad decisions are made by characters but they no longer suffer meaningful consequences.
One of the reasons GoT became a sensation was because it was different. It broke with convention and audience expectations. Now, it's just another action franchise. A very well-done action franchise. But aside from the sex and language, no longer fundamentally different in approach from Marvel Movies or Star Wars.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Last edited by CliffFletcher; 04-30-2019 at 09:40 AM.
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I just think the writing is catering to the new broader fanbase it's acquired a bit and that is why the narrative approach has changed so much. Also wouldn't surprise me if they are saving more characters now because it's in their own financial best interest.
The core who started with the show were the book ppl, nerdy fantasy readers who lived for the details. It's so popular in the mainstream now... There are folks watching it who would never in a million years have picked up one of the books. They want to spend time with the people they like after almost a decade, see big action and have a couple easy to follow backstabbings or other dramatic twists and probably are going to glaze over if they try something too complex like that bran/lord of light thing.
I think you're right. But I still don't really understand the change in tack.
1) Show with X approach becomes extraordinarily popular.
2) So many people watch it now that we can't take X approach, we have to take Y approach.
If the show became popular with X approach, why change? Why not keep giving the audience X?
Maybe a lot of the people who came to the series once it was a phenomenon don't really want X - they just started watching because it was popular. I don't know. But I just don't get how many shows change once they become popular and stop doing the things that made them popular in the first place.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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Except nobody was predicting what happened lol. So how has that changed? Wouldn't any one that was "good" or even living killing the night king be fan service then? Maybe sometimes a bit of fan service is inevitable.
I think the only outcome that would've satisfied you here was the night king winning, by your angle here.
I wasn't expecting the Night King to win, I was just hoping for a battle with more consequences. And I didn't really have a problem with Arya being the one to kill the NK, it just seemed too easy. Personally I felt things were too rushed ever since that whole stupid plot to steal a wight to show Cersei, and I would have gotten rid of that plot point all together. Instead have one major battle at the wall with plenty of casualties, but the living are holding their own until the Night King kills a dragon then and resurrects it, destroying the wall and forcing a mass retreat to Winterfell. Next episode have a smaller, more focused battle around and in the castle with an ever shrinking circle protecting Bran, then you can have Arya killing NK. You have a feeling of true despair after the wall is lost and a few major characters die, which gives more weight to the final desperation battle, and fits better with the overall tone of the series
Again, I really don't have a problem with the story itself, it's just the execution. I felt that the first battle at the wall against the wildlings, Hardhome, and the Battle of the Bastards all had more weight to them than the last episode. And in Hardhome at least you got to see the white walkers be threatening, not standing around being useless
I don't think it has anything to do with X and Y viewership. The changes, pacing, consequences, etc. all occurred once they ran out of source material. I don't think there's much more than that.
Then it became an issue of getting from point b from point a without as much guidance (in part because GRRM is probably tackling the same issues) while trying to please the fans.
I think they just ran out of time to tell the story in the way we are used to. They could not keep this young cast together forever. And, running out of source material.
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I think they just ran out of time to tell the story in the way we are used to. They could not keep this young cast together forever. And, running out of source material.
They definitely meandered at huge points since they ran out of source material. If they'd spent less time on the San Snakes, Dany's upteenth slave freeing/rebellion quelling, Arya and Sam's adventures, and the shoehorning in of the Ironborn saga there would have been a lot more time to flesh out substantive plots.
It really felt like they didn't have a plan on how to conclude the series over the last 4 seasons or so. Far too much time was devouted to pointless plots and now the last season feels crammed.
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