[Rumour] UPD: Flames are done for the day. Zucker deal does not go through

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

As I mentioned in the other thread, nice tweet from Tre about havin a cold beer, and all the sentiment about standing pat, but there still is the large bold headline on TSN's front page about a big deal (presumably re Stone) that fell through last night. So like the Scorpion, even management changes their tune quickly.

Would be nice to know the parameters and why it fell apart.

Reading between the lines, I'm pretty sure Mark Stone would be a Calgary Flame, if Treliving was willing to give up Juuso Valimaki

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Bingo

His quote talks more about having Valimaki in the organization than standing pat.

Any big deal that went down wasn't necessarily a changing tune it was a refusal to include Valimaki in any package.

I was referring more to all the sentiment on here about standing pat. But Tre singling out Valimaki is a nice public vote of confidence for the youngster no doubt.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I've always been hesitant to move big future pieces this year. Why?

1) Window is just opening, not closing
2) Goaltending isn't secure enough to bolster other areas
3) I think windows get extended with entry level players and they come from 1sts and 2nds
4) I think keeping the young D gives them the chance to add more futures in the summer for veteran D. That dissipates if you move one now.
5) Teams tend to need some heartbreak in a playoff run before they're ready so this could be year -1

I agree and would add 1 more.

BT has no idea how this club responds in the playoff scenario and associated pressure.

If goaltending is an issue...blowing their brains out today would have neutered them in fixing that problem for next year and we would be right back in the same spot.

I know lots say "this doesnt happen every year" and this is true, but does anyone think that, barring devastating injuries, this club wont at least be back in the playoffs next season and beyond?

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

Reading between the lines, I'm pretty sure Mark Stone would be a Calgary Flame, if Treliving was willing to give up Juuso Valimaki

I think it's a combination of that plus the 9.5M+ we would have had to give him to extend him.

In the end, Tre decided to keep Valimaki and not screw up our cap structure, which I'm ok with.

[Benched]

agreed. if/when we are constantly in the playoffs, it becomes easier to identify need.

I think this year being so unexpected, management isn't quite sure where we need help.



I hope we go deep this year (duh). Or win (super duh). But regardless, with that data and if we can perform similarly next year, they'll have a much better handle on what the teams strengths and weaknesses are. Right now it's all 'regress' then 'surge' in differing areas, so it's hard to tell. (like where is the offense coming from? to 2nd highest offense in the league)

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

Reading between the lines, I'm pretty sure Mark Stone would be a Calgary Flame, if Treliving was willing to give up Juuso Valimaki

I'm pretty sure Treliving offered better pieces without Valimaki but it was more to do with the money Stone wanted to extend, Stone likely wanted $10+ to play here.

[ColoradoFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I'm pretty sure Treliving offered better pieces without Valimaki but it was more to do with the money Stone wanted to extend, Stone likely wanted $10+ to play here.

Agree, might have been an even bigger spread

[Calgary4LIfe]

This was a 2nd overall quality of a team before the deadline, it very much probably still is a 2nd overall kind of team.


Every deadline we see big moves, and only a handful of moves end up working out or having any kind of big impact. I think Stone will move the needle for Vegas. I think Nyquist will help San Jose. I don't think Vegas is going far in the playoffs, however, and the real threat is the Sharks (and, IMO, the Blues are the other team in the west that makes me worried).


I still like Calgary's chances this year, but they are also a young team without much playoff experience. We haven't seen either goaltender in the playoffs. We haven't seen 2/3rds of our defence in the playoffs.



Also, I have read somewhere that the upcoming draft is a fairly deep draft where teams can still find mid-round quality at the end of the 1st round. I am ok with keeping it. The player you draft might end up being better than the player you would have spent it on.


Valimaki, Kylington and Andersson are still Flames. They all have really nice upsides.



I can't complain. I was really, really looking forward to Stone, or even Granlund, but Treliving obviously didn't want to take away from this group, and paying 9.5 - almost 3 million more than anyone else on the team - would have thrown the salary structure out of whack a bit.



I don't hate standing pat (well, except for the insurance on Fatenberg). Doing so is much preferable to over-paying. The room stays the same. The culture and chemistry stay the same. This is a 2nd place team. Reward the players that got you this far with an opportunity to show you just how far they are willing to take you.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Jeezuz you are one sensitive dude.

9.5 is not 8...no. Not even close..and particularly over 8 years when several i saw here were for 6 or 7 years.

But more to the point...when someone presents you with reality in a fantasy scenario, you are probably best to heed it at least a bit and then when that is exactly what plays out, not then attack them for being correct.

And you are damn straight the tax implication comes into play because Stone and his reps are quite aware what tax rates exist in what jurisdictions, and sign for appropriate rates accordingly if money is a motivator. All the great players who are facing free agency do that, why wouldn't they? It's a big part of their agents job.

This is a hockey forum, if you put out opinions or ideas, you best expect to be challenged on them and especially when you were proven wrong.

I was merely pointing out how misguided you and others were when getting caught up in the overhype around the possible acquisition of Mark freaking Stone and the actual cost of acquiring and keeping him.

It’s only fantasy if the flames has no interest because of the problems you suggest. Looks to me the flames we’re ready to acquire Stone but didn’t want to give up Valimaki. So not as fantasy as you like to suggest.

[Itse]

Looking at the trades, I feel we got in part screwed by our shortage of tradeable prospects.

It's a side effect of trading away your draft picks.

...also Treliving screwed up by signing James Neal. Replace him with someone cheap and there's plenty of cap space for, say, Stone.

That contract is an anchor, no two ways about it.

[Itse]

That said:

I can't remember another year recently when the west has loaded up for the playoffs like this.

Most of the teams are going to be disappointed. A part of me is definitely glad we didn't join in on the frenzy.

Oh, and what Bingo and others have said. We have a lot of question marks still with experience and goaltending, going all in would have been a huge risk, plus we're still one of the best teams in the west.

Yes, I'm definitely sweating a bit more about facing Nashville and Vegas, but it was always going to be unlikely that the rest of the conference is just going to let us walk over them.

Look at it this way: we're the team others in the west are looking up at and thinking "we need to get better to beat them".

It's not such a bad place to be.

[Strange Brew]

I’m good with Treliving’s approach. It’s true there are no guarantees the team will be in this position again, but really if the team isn’t back in the hunt again over next few years, then this is kind of fool’s gold anyway, isn’t it?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Itse

Looking at the trades, I feel we got in part screwed by our shortage of tradeable prospects.

It's a side effect of trading away your draft picks.

...also Treliving screwed up by signing James Neal. Replace him with someone cheap and there's plenty of cap space for, say, Stone.

That contract is an anchor, no two ways about it.

I think the lack of picks was the bigger missing chip. For the most part I believe teams would rather have a pick, where their scouts can choose someone, as opposed to a prospect, UNLESS, that prospect is really good
So the Flames didn't have a 2019 2nd.
And they didn't have prospects that probably could be used instead of that. The second tier guys like Philips, Foo, Gillies, etc aren't that.
So unless they were willing to trade one of the big 3 young dmen, or Dube - then they didn't have much to deal.

[Manhattanboy]

At the end of the day sure has been fun being part of the buyer convo this year.

[Bingo]

If the Flames can hold top spot in the Pacific the map looks really good for them. You get San Jose and Vegas beating each other up in the first round, and Winnipeg and Nashville beating each other up in the second round.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If the Flames can hold top spot in the Pacific the map looks really good for them. You get San Jose and Vegas beating each other up in the first round, and Winnipeg and Nashville beating each other up in the second round.

Sure, but with San Jose breathing down our necks and adding Nyquist for a song, that becomes less likely. And then you’re facing one of those teams yourselves, possibly several depending on how everything shakes up and how deep the run is.

Let’s not completely discount the risk of doing nothing here. The West loaded up and the Flames are not insulated from that by any means.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Itse

That said:

I can't remember another year recently when the west has loaded up for the playoffs like this.

Most of the teams are going to be disappointed. A part of me is definitely glad we didn't join in on the frenzy.

Oh, and what Bingo and others have said. We have a lot of question marks still with experience and goaltending, going all in would have been a huge risk, plus we're still one of the best teams in the west.

Yes, I'm definitely sweating a bit more about facing Nashville and Vegas, but it was always going to be unlikely that the rest of the conference is just going to let us walk over them.

Look at it this way: we're the team others in the west are looking up at and thinking "we need to get better to beat them".

It's not such a bad place to be.

Assuming the standings stay as is...

SJS face VGK in the first round
NAS face STL in the first round
WPG face DAL in the first round
BOS face TOR in the first round
CBJ face WAS in the first round

Even without the inevitable upsets, half the teams that loaded up will be gone after the first round.

I go back to what I said earlier... not only did CAL not give up a bunch of assets, and not only are we leading the west, but we probably have a younger core than any of the teams listed above. WPG is also fairly young, as is TOR, but CAL compares quite well with all those teams this year (save TBL), and better than any of them going forward.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If the Flames can hold top spot in the Pacific the map looks really good for them. You get San Jose and Vegas beating each other up in the first round, and Winnipeg and Nashville beating each other up in the second round.

Agreed, and I like our chances against any of the potential wild card teams quite a bit.

[Duffalufagus]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If the Flames can hold top spot in the Pacific the map looks really good for them. You get San Jose and Vegas beating each other up in the first round, and Winnipeg and Nashville beating each other up in the second round.

Agree. 2 days ago I was thinking finishing second in the div would be the easiest path. Not anymore. Stone is a game changer for Vegas and I’d now rather play any of chi/stl/dal/col/ari (fingers crossed).

We have the schedule to do it and are dynamite at home. Just need that first line to get going. They look lost out there.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Sure, but with San Jose breathing down our necks and adding Nyquist for a song, that becomes less likely. And then you’re facing one of those teams yourselves, possibly several depending on how everything shakes up and how deep the run is.

Let’s not completely discount the risk of doing nothing here. The West loaded up and the Flames are not insulated from that by any means.

No guarantees, that is for sure.

But I'll take our chances. The Flames' schedule from here gets significantly better. Apparently we have one of the easiest schedules in the league the rest of the way, and most of it is at home.

We need the goaltending to be strong, but then again if it isn't, any trade would have been a waste of assets anyway.

I think the Flames will hold onto top spot. And if they do, the playoffs shape up pretty nicely for us.