[News] Jan 3 UPD: Frolik's agent complains about his ice time

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think saying that the team is making obvious bad decisions is an oversimplification and opinion rather than statement of fact.
Frolik, Ryan, Jankowski are all unable to really drive offense. So while having Ryan on the 2nd PP isn't ideal, I don't know that Frolik or Janko is really an upgrade.
One can debate if Neal should continue to get ice-time over Frolik I suppose but getting him going and playing to his historic levels has more upside than what Frolik can do.


The coaching staff allocates time and assignments based on what they think gives them the best chance to win. So referring to those calls as "obvious bad decisions" doesn't seem logical. They may not be decisions you agree with- and that's fine- but there is a rationale behind them that is sound.

What???

Frolik is definitely an upgrade. Frolik may not be great at driving offense but he is way more offensively talented than Ryan.

Ryan is not good offensively and Neal continues to be hot garbage anywhere and everywhere. They should not be on the PP at all.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Watching Frolik play and looking at his numbers, I don't see why the Flames have any need to trade him. He helps this team win more so than the majority of the other forwards on this team. He and Allen Walsh are probably looking at a guy like James Neal being gifted all these games and minutes and they probably can't believe that he's being scratched over him and some others. Guy has 9 goals in 25 games playing 12 minutes a game. For a goal starved bottom 6, I'd trade others before I'd trade Frolik at this point.

It sounds like the guy still wants to be here and even though his agent went about it in a not so ideal way, I wouldn't trade Frolik because of that. For what he brings to the team and the type of guy he is, this can be overlooked. If he helps this team win, keep him.

How many of those 9 goals are empty netters? 3? The team has a better record with Frolik out of the lineup than when he is in so is he really helping the team win? Now he is publically outing via his agent.

His contract hurts this team over the summer so if you can get a decent asset for him you do it. Don’t trade him for a bad return to dump him but in my opinion of another team would take that cap hit from the Flames I would support
Him being moved for a 3rd rounder or something like that.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Again an over simplification. Players have roles and what the team is hoping Neal can do for them are not the same things that they expect Frolik to do.

They aren't apples to apples players.

I think most would look at how the Flames are assigning ice time and understand the logic behind it.

Speaking of apples to apples, that is not a direct response to my point. It is closer to a generic response to any point.

Oversimplification is a cop out. Every post on a message board is an oversimplification. Has to be.

Like I said, with the optics him not cracking the lineup, Frolik could get himself healthy scratched in to a loss of millions of dollars or even no career at all, by being the best teammate ever and accepting scratches and demotions.

As an aside, hope is not a strategy. They should have expectations for Neal, not Hope.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Speaking of apples to apples, that is not a direct response to my point. It is closer to a generic response to any point.

Oversimplification is a cop out. Every post on a message board is an oversimplification. Has to be.

Like I said, with the optics him not cracking the lineup, Frolik could get himself healthy scratched in to a loss of millions of dollars or even no career at all, by being the best teammate ever and accepting scratches and demotions.

As an aside, hope is not a strategy. They should have expectations for Neal, not Hope.

What is this "not cracking the line-up" stuff. He's been a healthy scratch a small handful of times. He's pretty much a regular member of the playing roster.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Karl

What???

Frolik is definitely an upgrade. Frolik may not be great at driving offense but he is way more offensively talented than Ryan.

Ryan is not good offensively and Neal continues to be hot garbage anywhere and everywhere. They should not be on the PP at all.

Over the past number of years here are Frolik's PP points:
This year: 0
Last year: 0
2016/2017: 8
2015/2016: 1
2014/2015: 7
2013/2014: 2
2012/2013: 0
2011/2012: 0
2010/2011: 0

He's never been a PP guy. You can argue he's never had much opportunity but his attributes are such that he simply isn't well suited to that role. He is a strong two way 5:5 player and PKer.

Now the thing is Derek Ryan isn't a strong PP player either with just 7 PPPs last year and 8 the year before.

But my point is that if Frolik's argument is that he should be on the PP - I simply dont' agree with that. The Flames need to do something to do get the second unit going - but I don't think Fro is the solution there.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

What is this "not cracking the line-up" stuff. He's been a healthy scratch a small handful of times. He's pretty much a regular member of the playing roster.

Compare to Neal. How many scratches?

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Over the past number of years here are Frolik's PP points:
This year: 0
Last year: 0
2016/2017: 8
2015/2016: 1
2014/2015: 7
2013/2014: 2
2012/2013: 0
2011/2012: 0
2010/2011: 0

He's never been a PP guy. You can argue he's never had much opportunity but his attributes are such that he simply isn't well suited to that role. He is a strong two way 5:5 player and PKer.

Now the thing is Derek Ryan isn't a strong PP player either with just 7 PPPs last year and 8 the year before.

But my point is that if Frolik's argument is that he should be on the PP - I simply dont' agree with that. The Flames need to do something to do get the second unit going - but I don't think Fro is the solution there.

Well he's a better solution than Derek Ryan and he's infinitely better than Neal right now.

Put Rasmus Andersson in Ryan's spot on PP2 and put Frolik in Neal's spot on PP2 for now. Or maybe even Janko for Neal.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Over the past number of years here are Frolik's PP points:
This year: 0
Last year: 0
2016/2017: 8
2015/2016: 1
2014/2015: 7
2013/2014: 2
2012/2013: 0
2011/2012: 0
2010/2011: 0

He's never been a PP guy. You can argue he's never had much opportunity but his attributes are such that he simply isn't well suited to that role. He is a strong two way 5:5 player and PKer.

Now the thing is Derek Ryan isn't a strong PP player either with just 7 PPPs last year and 8 the year before.

But my point is that if Frolik's argument is that he should be on the PP - I simply dont' agree with that. The Flames need to do something to do get the second unit going - but I don't think Fro is the solution there.

PP points are meaningless without context. How much PP time has he gotten?

Let me guess. Sure he has no PP points in no PP time, but golly, Peters is the coach and you have to trust his deployment - he would put Frolik on the PP if he thought he could get points out of him. After all, he makes all decisions to give the team the best chance to win. (How did I do?) :-)

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Meh. The team would benefit from more ice time from Frolik.

How’d Neal do on his 2 on 0?
What did Czarnik do?
Is Hathaway that great on the PK (and I acknowledge he is good at it) that you need to dress him over a guy that can truly play up and down the lineup in all situations?

I’m all for good team guys, and by all accounts Fro is one. But he also is a proven good player who is better than a lot of dead weight on this team.

The ‘Peters is winning so you gotta trust him’ is lovely but is a lousy argument and a cop out. Really the team wins largely based on top line offense, not the random blending down below. Sure as hell ain’t winning because Ryan belongs on PP2, or due to Neal, Dube, Mangiapane, etc.

Sucks that his agent has to do this, but at his age this kind of stuff can ruin a guy’s career and cost him millions.

I bet the team has sent the message that they want guys to be pissed not to play and this is a consequence of that.

Go Fro!

Whether the decisions on the ice are right or wrong, or whether Frolik has an argument to be made is completely irrelevant. The way he's handling this is 100% wrong and something only a ####ty team mate and someone with a lack of professionalism would do. Especially considering this hasn't been going on for very long either. We are 3 months into Peter's first season..............kind of shows Frolik doesn't have much of a tolerance for having to be flexible, accept his role or work through things either if he's already at the extreme step of having his agent launch a media assault 3 months into a relationship with the coach he wishes he was better.

This isn't about being with the player or with the coach or with management. It's about not being for someone doing something counter productive to the team because he's not 100% happy with how things are going personally. It doesn't matter if Frolik is 100% right, has shown his true colours, he's shown he's a me above the team guy and he needs to GTFO. It's not even a contract year for him either.

And I actually agree, so far, he's the best fit on that 2nd line. I also agree with the coach (and presumably the GM) that it would be better if someone else took charge of that spot with more offensive upside, but that certainly hasn't happened this year with the players we have now, but I at least understand why he's been trying to find a different fit. This team would be better with Frolik on the 3rd line, he's best suited there. But right now, chemistry of the 3M line, the inconsistency of Bennett and the poor play of Neal and Czarnik simply not being good enough hasn't done enough to make any of them a better fit than Frolik.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

How many of those 9 goals are empty netters? 3? The team has a better record with Frolik out of the lineup than when he is in so is he really helping the team win? Now he is publically outing via his agent.

His contract hurts this team over the summer so if you can get a decent asset for him you do it. Don’t trade him for a bad return to dump him but in my opinion of another team would take that cap hit from the Flames I would support
Him being moved for a 3rd rounder or something like that.

Take away his empty netters and he's still scoring at a 0.24 clip, or a 20 goal pace without PP time and bottom 6 minutes. Realistically, no one should be criticizing his goal scoring this season because his rate even with out his empty netters would only be behind the top 4 in Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm and Tkachuk. With more ice time, he'd probably have even more as well. He also makes the 2nd line complete as they seem to play at their best as the 3M line.

Personally, I'd only explore a trade in the summer if the team needs the cap space. I could see Dube being his eventual replacement as they bring a lot of similar elements, but I'm not sure Dube will be ready for that role next season.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

The ‘Peters is winning so you gotta trust him’ is lovely but is a lousy argument and a cop out. Really the team wins largely based on top line offense, not the random blending down below.

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

No, those are your words.

I’m saying that just because Peters has a great top line and the team is doing great, doesn’t mean that every decision he makes is perfect.

I thought that was obvious.

Nah, what's obvious is your words in the first quote suggest that the team wins based on the top line, and that coaching has little to do with that performance

i don't think anyone is saying Peters is perfect... however, the choices he's made thus far have been pretty good (some have been frustrating too) but he has his team in 3rd place - i don't think that's a 'cop out' argument

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Take away his empty netters and he's still scoring at a 0.24 clip, or a 20 goal pace without PP time and bottom 6 minutes. Realistically, no one should be criticizing his goal scoring this season because his rate even with out his empty netters would only be behind the top 4 in Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm and Tkachuk. With more ice time, he'd probably have even more as well. He also makes the 2nd line complete as they seem to play at their best as the 3M line.

Personally, I'd only explore a trade in the summer if the team needs the cap space. I could see Dube being his eventual replacement as they bring a lot of similar elements, but I'm not sure Dube will be ready for that role next season.

He only scored when he is in the top 6. The 3M line has not been the same since their first year together. They get a quick burst when Frolik has returned from scratches and he has piled up his points in those games.

I am not running the guy out of town but I don’t like this move by his agent (that he obviously consented to) and do not thinks Frolik brings enough value at $4.3M. If there is a team that wants to pay an asset to take him on then Treliving should take a look at it.

Obviously there is something with Frolik’s game that Peters doesn’t like so if this is not going to work then both parties should move on. The Flames shouldn’t do it for anything though and I trust Treliving will get a reasonable return when he eventually makes the move

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Nah, what's obvious is your words in the first quote suggest that the team wins based on the top line, and that coaching has little to do with that performance

Huh? Those two say the same thing in essence.

Do you like this better? Red hot smoking amazing top line decision, all credit to Peters, gives Peters leeway to make decisions with the rest of the roster that often don’t affect game outcome. The team can outscore its problems.

I don’t know why that is confusing.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

He only scored when he is in the top 6. The 3M line has not been the same since their first year together. They get a quick burst when Frolik has returned from scratches and he has piled up his points in those games.

I am not running the guy out of town but I don’t like this move by his agent (that he obviously consented to) and do not thinks Frolik brings enough value at $4.3M. If there is a team that wants to pay an asset to take him on then Treliving should take a look at it.

Obviously there is something with Frolik’s game that Peters doesn’t like so if this is not going to work then both parties should move on. The Flames shouldn’t do it for anything though and I trust Treliving will get a reasonable return when he eventually makes the move

I really have to wonder what it is that Peters likes about Ryan's game enough that makes him think that Ryan is still any reasonable option on the PP.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Huh? Those two say the same thing in essence.

Do you like this better? Red hot smoking amazing top line decision, all credit to Peters, gives Peters leeway to make decisions with the rest of the roster that often don’t affect game outcome. The team can outscore its problems.

I don’t know why that is confusing.

right, its all pond hockey out there, no system, no structure, no line matching no analysis ... just the top line out there doing their own thing, free wheeling.

gotcha.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Toonage

And Frolik not finishing his deal here is great as they will need that money for Tkachuk, Bennett, Rittich, etc. He was likely going to be moved this off season regardless.

I always felt he was a guy that they would be looking to move this summer to free up money. Now it's looking like the Frolik camp is making that more of a certainty.

[Kasi]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

right, its all pond hockey out there, no system, no structure, no line matching no analysis ... just the top line out there doing their own thing, free wheeling.

gotcha.

They tried that earlier in the year. That wheeling dealing top line despite their scoring prowess was being outscored. Even now their overall numbers compared to other top lines is pedestrian because of how badly they started off. The fact they’re being good defensively lately is entirely due to Peters in getting them to play better defensively. And you can see it’s still been a struggle. Every few games there is one where Monahan floats and they get 3 goals scored on them. So yes getting those guys to mostly commit to playing defense is very much one of the best things Peters has done.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think saying that the team is making obvious bad decisions is an oversimplification and opinion rather than statement of fact.
Frolik, Ryan, Jankowski are all unable to really drive offense. So while having Ryan on the 2nd PP isn't ideal, I don't know that Frolik or Janko is really an upgrade.
One can debate if Neal should continue to get ice-time over Frolik I suppose but getting him going and playing to his historic levels has more upside than what Frolik can do.


The coaching staff allocates time and assignments based on what they think gives them the best chance to win. So referring to those calls as "obvious bad decisions" doesn't seem logical. They may not be decisions you agree with- and that's fine- but there is a rationale behind them that is sound.

Some fans seem to badly want to believe there are personal agendas, or hidden motives in play.

I am convinced that Peters badly wants to win each an every night while at the same time Treliving is also mindful of the organization's long term success. It doesn't mean every decision is perfect and they're above criticism. You may not agree with their rationale, it could even be wrong, but it might be worth spending a few minutes trying to understand what they may be trying to accomplish before dismissing it.

I also believe that how guys practice plays a bigger part than any of us realize and we simply have no insight into that either.

Anyway the second PP unit doesn't look good. I don't think the talent is there to make it great. It's a little different scenario when you're setting up in the zone and handling the puck vs. scoring on rushes and broken plays.

I don't see Frolik as a guy that really plays that kind of set up game personally.

The possibility here is Czarnik, who hasn't been good. But he can handle the puck and maybe he has decent vision to help run a PP. He needs to prove he is not a total liability 5v5.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Compare to Neal. How many scratches?

If your point is to grind your axe about Neal then grind away.
My point was that the narrative that Frolik isn't able to "crack the lineup" is hyperbole

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

PP points are meaningless without context. How much PP time has he gotten?

Let me guess. Sure he has no PP points in no PP time, but golly, Peters is the coach and you have to trust his deployment - he would put Frolik on the PP if he thought he could get points out of him. After all, he makes all decisions to give the team the best chance to win. (How did I do?) :-)

Over his entire career why has he never really been leaned on as a PP guy?
Is the argument here really that Frolik should be on the PP. What attributes does he have that make you believe he'd be effective there?