Rasmus Andersson VS. Sven Bärtschi

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

I'd much rather have Baertschi than Ryan or Neal, and he'd be a definite improvement to the top 9.

He also has a great hockey name.

I'm still not 100% sold on Rasmus being a top 4 guy for a lot of years. I think his best comparable might actually be a slightly less gritty but a little more offensively gifted Mike Stone.

Stone put up 36 points one year, and I would be damn pleased if Andersson ever did that. I think Andersson may end up having the same issue that Sven has, where if he's not given impact minutes (top 4, PP time) you might end up preferring someone who's a little more complete at 5v5.

Of course Rasmus still is very young and has succeeded everywhere he has played, so I would count on a little more progression from him. Plus, he's never asked for a trade out of town and has seemingly worked hard on his biggest weaknesses, so I much prefer him over Sven.

He stole Stone's job this year, as a 22 year old.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by 1991 Canadian

I think this trade has shaped up to be a win-win.

Based on what they have done in their careers so far, Baertschi is the better player. He is a 2nd line winger on most teams in the NHL and has rounded out his game since his time in Calgary.

Andersson has not looked out of place on the Flames third pairing and has the potential to be a top 4 guy. I don't see top pairing potential like some do, but I'd love to be proven wrong. He's been a great addition to the Flames.

The one thing that tips this trade slightly in favour of the Flames (and potentially the reason why some people are undervaluing Baertschi) is Sven has been awful against the Flames. He only has 2 assists in 13 games against the Flames and has not looked good. He is a half point per game player against the rest of the league.

I like both players.

I can argue he's press box rotating player on more teams than he would be a 2nd line winger.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Jankowski has more goals and more points than Baertschi over the last 2 seasons. He also kills penalties and plays a more important position.

Here's the thing: if you could acquire Baertschi for free, and insert him into the lineup, who would you take out and why?

Let's use this as the Flames' depth lineup:

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Backlund - Neal
Bennett - Jankowski - Frolik
Dube - Ryan - Hathaway
Mangiapane - Quine - Czarnik

I don't want Baertschi on my 4th line, so the only cases I can make are to replace Mangiapane or Czarnik.

And remember, Baertschi costs $3.367M. Factoring in that, I don't want him replacing those guys either. If I were the GM, and Vancouver offered him to me for free, I would decline.

The way James Neal is playing right now?

Sven: 10 GP, 3 G 3 A. $3.3M
Neal: 37 GP, 3 G 4 A $5.75M

Now I think Neal is better than his current stats, but the season is nearly half done.

Full disclosure - I don’t want Baertschi either but there sure is a case to be made that he is better than certain Flames based on productivity

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

So we are talking about how Baertschi isn’t doing much with his opportunities and citing Neal as a counter example? James Neal?

Throw everything at the wall, something will stick. :-)

James Neal has scored 40 goals. He is having the worst year of his career, that is true. But Baertschi has NEVER been in the same conversation as Neal.

And your first argument was that Baertschi has been good for the last 2 plus years. Well, Neal has destroyed him over that time.

Now, because it's Neal, you want to talk about this year only. Okay, Baertschi has 6 points.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

The way James Neal is playing right now?

Sven: 10 GP, 3 G 3 A. $3.3M
Neal: 37 GP, 3 G 4 A $5.75M

Now I think Neal is better than his current stats, but the season is nearly half done.

Full disclosure - I don’t want Baertschi either but there sure is a case to be made that he is better than certain Flames based on productivity

You have clearly missed the point of this thread title. The comparison is Andersson not Neal. We have a Neal thread already.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

James Neal has scored 40 goals. He is having the worst year of his career, that is true. But Baertschi has NEVER been in the same conversation as Neal.

And your first argument was that Baertschi has been good for the last 2 plus years. Well, Neal has destroyed him over that time.

Now, because it's Neal, you want to talk about this year only. Okay, Baertschi has 6 points.

Sure, I don’t care what Neal did many years ago riding shotgun with the best player in the game. Or any other teams.

He seems to be struggling on the only team I care about.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You have clearly missed the point of this thread title. The comparison is Andersson not Neal. We have a Neal thread already.

Yeah, I was responding to another guy.

And have noted that I prefer Andersson

This divergence of topic at least still involves one of the principals. And assessment of value of that person.

So thanks for your help.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Baertschi is >.5 points per game the last 2 seasons and this one.

That would put him above every Flame forward not on the top line or named Tkachuk.

For some reason, people appear to think or imply that top 6 productivity is 50+ points but really a team’s 5-6th forwards rarely hit that mark. They are often in the modest 40s

But really, Sven didn’t secure a regular top 6 role by the age of, what, 23 in Calgary and got shipped out. So he is hot garbage and not long for the league.

Sven has a career season where he scored 35pts don’t try and paint him like he would be the 4th or 5th highest scoring Flames forward. He would have finished 9th on the Flames in scoring last year and 11th the year before. The guy hasn’t been able to play 70 games in a single season yet.

He is a one dimensional player that whined and pouted behind the scenes to force a trade because he was passed over by other younger better players. Based on the way the guy acted on his way out I think it is valid that Flames fans trash the guy.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Sven has a career season where he scored 35pts don’t try and paint him like he would be the 4th or 5th highest scoring Flames forward. He would have finished 9th on the Flames in scoring last year and 11th the year before. The guy hasn’t been able to play 70 games in a single season yet.

He is a one dimensional player that whined and pouted behind the scenes to force a trade because he was passed over by other younger better players. Based on the way the guy acted on his way out I think it is valid that Flames fans trash the guy.

Agree that durability is surely an issue.

When referencing top 6 players, the cup winning Caps had Lars Eller 6th in scoring at 38 points in 82 games. Sven’s 35 came in 68 games.

People are throwing out claims that he is not top 6 or that he is almost out of the league. In reality, he left here and has taken a step forward to solidify himself as a NHL regular.

Yes I can very clearly see that many are somehow butt hurt by Sven not working out here, but he is no Erixon

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Yes I can very clearly see that many are somehow butt hurt by Sven not working out here, but he is no Erixon

I don’t think anyone is really butt-hurt anymore. Sven has performed fairly average overall with a fair bit of injuries since being traded 3.5 years ago. He hasn’t hurt the Flames in anyway since he left because he certainly did not find the potential he showed the first couple years after the draft when we thought he would be a potential building block. The fact we got Rasmus Andersson for him and that is panning our extremely well for the Flames makes it a big win for Calgary in the long run.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ right.

Good deal for the Flames because Andersson is a NHL regular with upside, at a position where they need it.

Not because Baertschi is trash

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Agree that durability is surely an issue.

When referencing top 6 players, the cup winning Caps had Lars Eller 6th in scoring at 38 points in 82 games. Sven’s 35 came in 68 games.

People are throwing out claims that he is not top 6 or that he is almost out of the league. In reality, he left here and has taken a step forward to solidify himself as a NHL regular.

Yes I can very clearly see that many are somehow butt hurt by Sven not working out here, but he is no Erixon

Lars Eller was not their 2nd line LW

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Lars Eller was not their 2nd line LW

So they had a top 6 player that scored less. What is your point?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

So they had a top 6 player that scored less. What is your point?

Well, the fact that you brought up Eller in response to something that he was not relevant to.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ right.

Good deal for the Flames because Andersson is a NHL regular with upside, at a position where they need it.

Not because Baertschi is trash

I agree with this, and certainly you’re right about a few people being butthurt (I’m sure him being a Canuck helps that).

We made out well because Sven didn’t want to play here and Andersson is playing well. If we had chosen one of the several other lesser 2nd round picks near Andersson we’d hate the trade. Things just seemed to work out well for both teams.

Sven isn’t a bad player. He’s not a dud, or a snivelling brat like our resident goof suggests, he’s just a solid middle six guy who is injury prone. Would I want him on the Flames? Sure. Would I want to trade anyone we have now? No. Not because they’re all better than Sven, but because they’re each more suited to their role more than he is. He wouldn’t replace anyone well on the middle-six, and while he’s better than the Mangiapane’s and Czarnik’s of the world (so far) there wouldn’t be much sense in having him ride pine because we’ve already seen how that works.

Good for Sven for making something of his career. Hopefully he finds a little health soon and can maintain his play for a full season, I like him. But I like beating the Canucks more, so I honestly would be just fine if he didn’t.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Agree that durability is surely an issue.

When referencing top 6 players, the cup winning Caps had Lars Eller 6th in scoring at 38 points in 82 games. Sven’s 35 came in 68 games.

People are throwing out claims that he is not top 6 or that he is almost out of the league. In reality, he left here and has taken a step forward to solidify himself as a NHL regular.

Yes I can very clearly see that many are somehow butt hurt by Sven not working out here, but he is no Erixon

It is usually the poster that starts throwing out insults that is probably the one that is butt hurt.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It is usually the poster that starts throwing out insults that is probably the one that is butt hurt.

Are you referring to “butt hurt” as an insult?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Are you referring to “butt hurt” as an insult?

There is a personal implication there as to the nature of a poster's intent, and an attempt to discredit their input. So yeah. It's what people do once they have run out of valid things to contribute.

But you know that.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

There is a personal implication there as to the nature of a poster's intent, and an attempt to discredit their input. So yeah. It's what people do once they have run out of valid things to contribute.

But you know that.

If butt hurt is an insult, so is saying Sven is a whining, snivelling brat who is a dud that will be out of the league (unrelated to injuries).

I’d say “butt hurt” pretty aptly describes some of the comments in this thread. Certainly not the majority, but some.

But.. you know that?

Don’t be made because one of your comment’s got called out for being as silly as it is. Injuries aside, he’s made a fine little career for himself. Good point production compared to other comparables in his draft class, and I don’t see anyone of them hanging on by a thread.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

He never did reach the potential that he flashed in the first couple years games after being drafted.

Fyp.

Not necessarily his fault, early success, fans who wanted a young player, a GM who fueled that fire of the fans, and who also put pressure on the guy.