Rasmus Andersson VS. Sven Bärtschi

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You have a 26 year old injury prone winger that's eclipsed 30 points once in his career and a 22 year old defenseman who's been a top level player in junior, AHL, and already a competent defensemen early into his NHL career. My thought is that the Flames made out very well on this trade.

Yeah, it isn't close at all.

Baertschi is a 26 year old, one-dimensional, winger who can't play in the top 6 on a decent team and is useless in the bottom 6. He has one 30-point season and could be out of the league in a couple years (not even factoring in his multiple concussions).

Andersson has already established himself as a #5 defenseman, at 22. He is already at least as valuable as Baertschi this year, and has a full NHL career ahead of him with top 4 being very likely and top 2 as a possibility for his upside.

The Flames' left side:

Gaudreau
Tkachuk
Bennett/Frolik
Dube

Does Baeertschi play? Would you rather have Baertschi on the 4th line than Dube? (I sure as hell wouldn't)

[JackIsBack]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The Flames' left side:

Gaudreau
Tkachuk
Bennett/Frolik
Dube

Does Baeertschi play? Would you rather have Baertschi on the 4th line than Dube? (I sure as hell wouldn't)

When you put it that way.... it's a great point. Right now, Baertschi is better then Dube, but was he in his first season? (No)... I'd take Dube on my forth because he has so much more potential. But what about Bennett - I like how Bennett is smashing it right now, and you need those guys - that's a tougher call, but I do love our team. But.... keeping with the thread... I'd take Rasmus - now more then ever after reading some awesome points here.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by JackIsBack

When you put it that way.... it's a great point. Right now, Baertschi is better then Dube, but was he in his first season? (No)... I'd take Dube on my forth because he has so much more potential. But what about Bennett - I like how Bennett is smashing it right now, and you need those guys - that's a tougher call, but I do love our team. But.... keeping with the thread... I'd take Rasmus - now more then ever after reading some awesome points here.

By the end of his 22 year old season, Baertschi had 10G, 20A, 30P TOTAL

As a 19 year old, Bennett put up 18G, 18A, 36P, which is better than Baertschi's career year.

Even if you ignore the other dimensions of Bennett's game (and why would you), Bennett is well ahead of Baertschi on points - and that's the only thing Baertschi's got. And Sven has gotten way more opportunity offensively.

[Geeoff]

The Flames hands were forced on that one because Baertschi was a pending RFA and he said he wasn't going to sign with the Flames. I mean a lot can change between March and July and teams really do have a lot of power over RFAs but I don't think you want a guy who doesn't want to be here.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Baertschi is >.5 points per game the last 2 seasons and this one.

That would put him above every Flame forward not on the top line or named Tkachuk.

For some reason, people appear to think or imply that top 6 productivity is 50+ points but really a team’s 5-6th forwards rarely hit that mark. They are often in the modest 40s

But really, Sven didn’t secure a regular top 6 role by the age of, what, 23 in Calgary and got shipped out. So he is hot garbage and not long for the league.

[savardandjokinen]

I say a win for both teams

[Phagoof]

Originally Posted by JackIsBack

I remember when Sven was our brightest prospect on a very short list, sort of like where Edmonton is today - boy have things changed for the better.

And little did we know he'd turn into a little, whining, sniveling brat. Perfect fit for Vancouver.

[dammage79]

Andersson a million times out of a million. Sven asked for a trade out of here so screw that guy.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Baertschi is >.5 points per game the last 2 seasons and this one.

That would put him above every Flame forward not on the top line or named Tkachuk.

For some reason, people appear to think or imply that top 6 productivity is 50+ points but really a team’s 5-6th forwards rarely hit that mark. They are often in the modest 40s

But really, Sven didn’t secure a regular top 6 role by the age of, what, 23 in Calgary and got shipped out. So he is hot garbage and not long for the league.

But that is because he is getting top 6 minutes and PP time.

And considering his opportunities, he isn't doing much with them. More importantly, there is no way he gets those opportunities on a good team. Once Baertschi is slotted into the bottom 6 where he belongs, and isn't getting PP time, he will be a 25 point guy who brings nothing else to the table.

Oh, and Backlund says hi. Also, Frolik and Neal both put up better points than Baertschi when they were given top 6 opportunities.

Baertschi is not good enough for the top 6. And he doesn't bring anything to the bottom 6. He is a replacement player.

[Huntingwhale]

I like Andersson better. Bart's made a decent career after a rough start. I think it's decent value for both sides. But I'll always pick a potential top 4 RHD over a somewhat soft, skilled winger.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

I like Andersson better. Bart's made a decent career after a rough start. I think it's decent value for both sides. But I'll always pick a potential top 4 RHD over a somewhat soft, skilled winger.

Currently Andersson looks better than "decent value" by a wide margin.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Baertschi is >.5 points per game the last 2 seasons and this one.

That would put him above every Flame forward not on the top line or named Tkachuk.

For some reason, people appear to think or imply that top 6 productivity is 50+ points but really a team’s 5-6th forwards rarely hit that mark. They are often in the modest 40s

But really, Sven didn’t secure a regular top 6 role by the age of, what, 23 in Calgary and got shipped out. So he is hot garbage and not long for the league.

Backlund has significantly outscored Sven and is also one of the league's best two-way players.

[Phagoof]

Rasmus is a stud, Bärtschi is a dud. /Thread

[1991 Canadian]

I think this trade has shaped up to be a win-win.

Based on what they have done in their careers so far, Baertschi is the better player. He is a 2nd line winger on most teams in the NHL and has rounded out his game since his time in Calgary.

Andersson has not looked out of place on the Flames third pairing and has the potential to be a top 4 guy. I don't see top pairing potential like some do, but I'd love to be proven wrong. He's been a great addition to the Flames.

The one thing that tips this trade slightly in favour of the Flames (and potentially the reason why some people are undervaluing Baertschi) is Sven has been awful against the Flames. He only has 2 assists in 13 games against the Flames and has not looked good. He is a half point per game player against the rest of the league.

I like both players.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

Backlund has significantly outscored Sven and is also one of the league's best two-way players.

Baertschi is, what, 26? Backlund’s stats were similar up to that age.
For one of the best two way players, shall I remind you that Backlund was a -21 last year?

Look, I don’t even care about Baertschi, and am really impressed by Andersson

Just think it is funny how useless people find a serviceable NHLer who has taken a step forward with his current horrible team

[bigrangy]

I'd much rather have Baertschi than Ryan or Neal, and he'd be a definite improvement to the top 9.

He also has a great hockey name.

I'm still not 100% sold on Rasmus being a top 4 guy for a lot of years. I think his best comparable might actually be a slightly less gritty but a little more offensively gifted Mike Stone.

Stone put up 36 points one year, and I would be damn pleased if Andersson ever did that. I think Andersson may end up having the same issue that Sven has, where if he's not given impact minutes (top 4, PP time) you might end up preferring someone who's a little more complete at 5v5.

Of course Rasmus still is very young and has succeeded everywhere he has played, so I would count on a little more progression from him. Plus, he's never asked for a trade out of town and has seemingly worked hard on his biggest weaknesses, so I much prefer him over Sven.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

But that is because he is getting top 6 minutes and PP time.

And considering his opportunities, he isn't doing much with them. More importantly, there is no way he gets those opportunities on a good team. Once Baertschi is slotted into the bottom 6 where he belongs, and isn't getting PP time, he will be a 25 point guy who brings nothing else to the table.

Oh, and Backlund says hi. Also, Frolik and Neal both put up better points than Baertschi when they were given top 6 opportunities.

Baertschi is not good enough for the top 6. And he doesn't bring anything to the bottom 6. He is a replacement player.

So we are talking about how Baertschi isn’t doing much with his opportunities and citing Neal as a counter example? James Neal?

Throw everything at the wall, something will stick. :-)

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

I'd much rather have Baertschi than Ryan or Neal, and he'd be a definite improvement to the top 9.

He also has a great hockey name.

I'm still not 100% sold on Rasmus being a top 4 guy for a lot of years. I think his best comparable might actually be a slightly less gritty but a little more offensively gifted Mike Stone.

Stone put up 36 points one year, and I would be damn pleased if Andersson ever did that. I think Andersson may end up having the same issue that Sven has, where if he's not given impact minutes (top 4, PP time) you might end up preferring someone who's a little more complete at 5v5.

Of course Rasmus still is very young and has succeeded everywhere he has played, so I would count on a little more progression from him. Plus, he's never asked for a trade out of town and has seemingly worked hard on his biggest weaknesses, so I much prefer him over Sven.

Wow. This is a pretty awful comparable. They play totally different games.

[Enoch Root]

Jankowski has more goals and more points than Baertschi over the last 2 seasons. He also kills penalties and plays a more important position.

Here's the thing: if you could acquire Baertschi for free, and insert him into the lineup, who would you take out and why?

Let's use this as the Flames' depth lineup:

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Backlund - Neal
Bennett - Jankowski - Frolik
Dube - Ryan - Hathaway
Mangiapane - Quine - Czarnik

I don't want Baertschi on my 4th line, so the only cases I can make are to replace Mangiapane or Czarnik.

And remember, Baertschi costs $3.367M. Factoring in that, I don't want him replacing those guys either. If I were the GM, and Vancouver offered him to me for free, I would decline.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by 1991 Canadian

I think this trade has shaped up to be a win-win.

Based on what they have done in their careers so far, Baertschi is the better player. He is a 2nd line winger on most teams in the NHL and has rounded out his game since his time in Calgary.

Andersson has not looked out of place on the Flames third pairing and has the potential to be a top 4 guy. I don't see top pairing potential like some do, but I'd love to be proven wrong. He's been a great addition to the Flames.

The one thing that tips this trade slightly in favour of the Flames (and potentially the reason why some people are undervaluing Baertschi) is Sven has been awful against the Flames. He only has 2 assists in 13 games against the Flames and has not looked good. He is a half point per game player against the rest of the league.

I like both players.

What teams do you think would invite him onto their top 6, assuming they could acquire him for free? Serious question.