[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Better debate should be. Who is on the expansion protection list?...

1. Gaudreau
2. Monahan
3. Tkachuk
4. Lindholm
5. Backlund
6. Bennett
7. ?

1. Hanifin
2. Andersson
3. Gio

The goalie is obviously anyone's guess.

Brodie and Hamomic will be UFA's so it will be easier to leave them exposed and still be able to potentially re-sign them.

If Kylington busts onto the scene and shows some promise at the NHL level it might make things a little more debatable on the backend.

The top 6 forwards to protect are pretty obvious but there is still one spot up for grabs IMO.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by David Struch

The "New" Core

Mark Giordano
Matthew Tkachuk
Johnny Gaudreau
Sean Monahan
Noah Hanifin
Elias Lindholm
Juuso Välimäki
Mikael Backlund
James Neal
Sam Bennett
Rasmus Andersson

I'd pair that down a bit ...

Clear Cut Core

Mark Giordano
Matthew Tkachuk
Johnny Gaudreau
Sean Monahan
Noah Hanifin
Elias Lindholm

Key Support Players

Mikael Backlund
James Neal
TJ Brodie

Could Be Either of the Above

Sam Bennett
Rasmus Andersson
Juuso Välimäki

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'd pair that down a bit ...

Clear Cut Core

Mark Giordano
Matthew Tkachuk
Johnny Gaudreau
Sean Monahan
Noah Hanifin
Elias Lindholm

Key Support Players

Mikael Backlund
James Neal
TJ Brodie

Could Be Either of the Above

Sam Bennett
Rasmus Andersson
Juuso Välimäki

I think there needs to be some consideration of Hamonic, with Gio getting along in years. No one currently defends as well other than Gio. Valimaki could well develop that way - he has good instincts. Hamonic isn't core, but he's a piece you either need or have to replace with something really similar.

[sa226]

Absolutely.

Hamonic leaves a sour taste in peoples mouth because of what he is and what we paid to get him. With his age, the age of Gio, the uncertainty with Brodie and the young kids making a push up the lineup, I think Hamonic is exactly the guy they are going to want to keep around for as long as he is willing. He has a sporadic history here, but I think he really stabilizes the defense. He makes Hanifin better.

I imagine he wont be too expensive on the next contract too.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think there needs to be some consideration of Hamonic, with Gio getting along in years. No one currently defends as well other than Gio. Valimaki could well develop that way - he has good instincts. Hamonic isn't core, but he's a piece you either need or have to replace with something really similar.

Very true, Hamonic should have been in my second group (in my opinion)

[SuperMatt18]

Yeah I'm starting to come around on that Hamonic deal. He's looked a lot better this year compared to last IMO. A big part of that is the chemistry between Hamonic and Hanifin, and if that chemistry lasts it means they likely lock in as your ongoing #2 pairing for a long time potentially.

They continue to be really strong together.

Corsi For: 62%
Shots For: 65%
High Danger For: 70%
Offensive Zone Face Off: 48%

It's funny because by those metrics they are performing a little better than the Slavin/Hamilton partnership that people have really liked for Carolina.

And really with Brodie finding his game again over the last week the top pairing looks great, and Gio/Brodie is performing just as well as Gio/Hamiton was last year.

First number will be Gio/Brodie and second Gio/Hamilton from last year.

Corsi For: 61% / 58%
Shots For: 57% / 57%
Goals For: 76% / 53%
High Danger For: 55% / 62%
Offensive Zone Face Off: 51% / 54%

So the Giordano pairing is just as good, the second pairing (Hanifin/Hamonic) is much better than it was last year (Brodie/Hamonic), and that Lindholm guy has looked great on the first line. Losing Fox still might hurt long term (depends if he actually signs in Carolina though) but the early returns from Lindholm/Hanifin are looking good too.

[Kovaz]

An important wrinkle for the next expansion draft is whether it takes place in 2020 or 2021. If I'm reading the rules correctly, Valimaki would be exempt in 2020 but not in 2021. It'd definitely make our protection decisions easier if Valimaki was exempt. Unfortunately, Andersson played exactly 10 games last year so that counts as a pro season for the expansion draft so he's eligible either year.

[Strange Brew]

I don't really understand the purpose in assigning players to certain categories. It's like an employee evaluation system with forced groupings. This happens all the time, but it's purpose is to help evaluate large groups of people and establish parity in a compensation system. None of which apply here IMO.

You don't want to lock yourself into viewing a certain group of players the same way. For instance, Tkachuk's role and future value to this team is very different from Giordano's. Under certain circumstances, you would treat each of them very differently.

To me the point is how all the pieces fit together and do you have the top level talent to carry the day when the going gets tough.

So maybe the question is, are the players identified as "core" good enough to carry this team to a championship or do you need to add or replace? And will your salary structure and organizational assets allow you to add/replace?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

IMO the core of the team is

1.Mony
2.Johnny
3.Chucky
4.Backs
5.Gio

Secondary Core Players

1.Neal
2.Lindholm (Still hasn't worked his way into the core of the team yet)
3.Hammer

I don't see how you could have Backlund as core but not Lindholm. Lindholm was likely going to be a core guy even if he remained what he was in Carolina.

He's already shown to be more than that. Imo, it's not whether he's core or not it's whether he's a core piece or a star core piece, and he's trending towards the latter.

*and who's Hammer? edit: Hamonic, I'm assuming?

[Calgary4LIfe]

Since everyone is categorizing who they think is core, here is my grouping:


Forwards:
Monahan - unquestionably a 1st line center. Clutch with his game winners to boot.
Gaudreau - most dynamic forward and can generate offence quickly
Lindholm - 200ft player that is great on faceoffs and can generate offence... and who knows what his ceiling REALLY is. I think he finishes a PPG this year with 30 goals.
Backlund - The above 3 players do not get as many points without Backlund playing the tough defensive zone minutes and tough matchups. When your line usually out-scores the opposing teams' best lines, you usually win games. That's what Backlund provides.
Tkachuk - Difficult to play against. Solid playmaker. Solid scorer. Great along the boards. Strong defensively. He is a throw-back to what the NHL used to have as 'complete players'. Nobody has as high of a compete level as Tkachuk, and he often pushes the team.


Defencemen:
Giordano - perhaps the NHL's consistently most underrated defencemen. Sets the tone at every practice. Provides the Flames with elite-level play in every zone. Never takes a single night off. NOT A SINGLE NIGHT OFF.
Brodie - Sure, his popularity has suffered on these boards the last couple of seasons, but that's Gulutzan hockey. Gulutzan's system did not make use of any of Brodie's strengths - namely his skating and playmaking ability. I said it before the Hamilton trade - if you have to choose between the two, you keep Brodie. Brodie makes the players around him better and the team more dangerous overall. He is also deadly in OT. Under Peters, you are starting to see the way he can dominate at both ends of the ice. Put him in a system where he is allowed to skate, and he responds.
Hanifin - I think he is a lot like Brodie, and I am glad that he is on the team. I still think Brodie has better playmaking ability and defensive ability, but Hanifin is also really young and is a solid bet to at the very least catch-up. Great skater, solid passer. I want the puck on Hanifin's stick when the Flames are exiting their zone, right after Brodie anyway.

Strong complimentary players:
Bennett - I am still of the opinion that Bennett suffered a regression under Gulutzan. Gulutzan saw how good he was along the boards and in puck-battles, and utilized him more as a checker. As Bingo has pointed out numerous times, there is NOBODY on the team that generates as many high danger chances as Bennett does per 60 minutes. Few will include him in the core right now, but I bet that when the season (and Playoffs!) are over, most will have added Bennett to their list (including myself). There is NOBODY better in the corners and along the boards, Tkachuk included in my opinion (and I think Tkachuk is damn near elite in those areas - it is just crazy how many puck battles Bennett wins).
Frolik - What the? Really? Frolik provides this team with a heavy defensive presence. Put him on any line, and I bet that line is able to hold its' own defensively. He provides solid depth scoring on top of this. He isn't a very good playmaker. He doesn't have a fantastic shot. What he gives you is a relentless attack of the puck. The most fit Flame on the team shows it every game.
Hamonic - Great team mate. Solid defensively. Great skater. Hard hitter. Will fight to stick up for his team. Moves the puck extremely well for a physical defensive defencemen.

Everyone else is a bit young and/or replaceable. Valimaki and Andersson have a legitimate shot at pushing up right now of course. Jankowski has that ability to become better, and I bet he finishes the year off with better numbers than last year as well, even though he has had a slower start to the season. He is a smart player with a lot of tools - shot, playmaking ability, skating ability, and a reach that makes Jagr smile. He needs to remember some of the Jagr's lessons and start utilizing his body more effectively. He will be a much more difficult player to play against.

I had Ferland in the 'strong complimentary player' category, and I bet that the Flames actually do really miss him. Hamilton had to be in my 'core' group, but as many here felt, was always missing 'something'. I didn't like his compete level in the defensive zone. Maybe it was an awareness thing. It wasn't because he didn't use his size like others wanted him to - I knew he just wasn't a physical player. I just felt he didn't compete hard enough for pucks at times, and though he does have an elite-level wrist shot from the point, he used it WAY too often rather than trying to make a better play. I like how Brodie, Giordano and Hanifin are better able to create offence much more dynamically. At any rate, I think Hanifin's compete level is much higher, his skating even more dynamic, his vision much higher, and is an all-around better and more 'stable' defencemen than Hamilton, even with 'only' a decent shot (rather than an elite one like Hamilton's).

I do think that Ferland is going to have a fantastic year, and think he would have had a great year in Calgary with how the system has changed. Ferland had wheels, had impressive playmaking ability, was solid defensively, a beast in the corners and perhaps the best shot on the team. He was improving every year, and I am sure Treliving was being honest with his remarks about Ferland post-trade. You still have to give to get, and that is a trade you have to make every time.

In 5 years, it will be interesting to see what the core is. I would bet that it will be considerably different. However, the existing core now is, IMO, good enough to win a cup with. Maybe a bit of tinkering is needed around this core, but this is a solid core. Backlund absolutely has to be part of this core, and IMO, Brodie as well.

[Bingo]

Did Ferland get hurt on Thursday night?

Injury reports don't show him listed, and the box score doesn't show a scrap or anything that would have seen him thrown out.

Asking because I noticed he only played 8 minutes in his last game. Could be a bout of the Ferland inconsistency because he's had one point in the last six and has been -2.

Lindholm will hit a spell too, don't get me wrong, I know Ferland has a lot of fans on the site, but this might be his first run of invisibility for the season.

[burnitdown]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Did Ferland get hurt on Thursday night?

Injury reports don't show him listed, and the box score doesn't show a scrap or anything that would have seen him thrown out.

Asking because I noticed he only played 8 minutes in his last game. Could be a bout of the Ferland inconsistency because he's had one point in the last six and has been -2.

Lindholm will hit a spell too, don't get me wrong, I know Ferland has a lot of fans on the site, but this might be his first run of invisibility for the season.

Looks like he's battling an illness...likely contributing to his slowdown over the past couple games.

Michael Smith
Verified account

@MSmithCanes
Nov 8
Micheal Ferland was fighting through an illness, which is why he didn't play in the third period, #Canes head coach Rod Brind'Amour said.

[LWcrowfoot]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'd pair that down a bit ...

Clear Cut Core

Mark Giordano
Matthew Tkachuk
Johnny Gaudreau
Sean Monahan
Noah Hanifin
Elias Lindholm

My groupings would be even tighter with Hanifin outside the core group. Perhaps some day but not at the moment. His offensive game is nil through 16 games. Though outside Gio offence from the D is struggling mightily .

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think there needs to be some consideration of Hamonic, with Gio getting along in years. No one currently defends as well other than Gio. Valimaki could well develop that way - he has good instincts. Hamonic isn't core, but he's a piece you either need or have to replace with something really similar.

This brings up an interesting topic for me; what do to next off season with our D?

Both Brodie and Hamonic are UFA's July 1st 2020, one of them should be moved next summer to advance this team forward in other areas. As 29 year olds they will both still command high salaries on the free agent market and with the emergence of Andersson, Valimaki and Kylington making a surge in the AHL guys have to be shipped out.

[Samonadreau]

A guy like Brindamour must love Ferly - played similar styles. Powerforward with lots of skill and pretty tough middleweight.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

A guy like Brindamour must love Ferly - played similar styles. Powerforward with lots of skill and pretty tough middleweight.

Could be a good fit. If Brindamour wants to take a particular special interest and keep pumping Ferly’s tires, Ferly may potentially respond better to that than he may have here.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by LWcrowfoot

My groupings would be even tighter with Hanifin outside the core group. Perhaps some day but not at the moment. His offensive game is nil through 16 games. Though outside Gio offence from the D is struggling mightily .







This brings up an interesting topic for me; what do to next off season with our D?



Both Brodie and Hamonic are UFA's July 1st 2020, one of them should be moved next summer to advance this team forward in other areas. As 29 year olds they will both still command high salaries on the free agent market and with the emergence of Andersson, Valimaki and Kylington making a surge in the AHL guys have to be shipped out.

Another big question is who takes over as #1D in the next 2-3 years as Gio inevitably starts to decline. I’m not sure I’d be so quick to ship out Brodie or Hamonic, especially with expansion coming up.

[Resolute 14]

Why would offence over an insigificant sample size determine if a defenceman is a core piece or not? I can easily buy Hanafin not being a core player right now. But not for that reason.

[Bingo]

I see Hanifin as a core piece.

20 minute / night defenseman that just turned 22, has three + years of experience and is locked up for six years.

Plays the PP, kills penalties and is a key piece of their top four now.

That's core.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by burnitdown

Looks like he's battling an illness...likely contributing to his slowdown over the past couple games.

Michael Smith
Verified account

@MSmithCanes
Nov 8
Micheal Ferland was fighting through an illness, which is why he didn't play in the third period, #Canes head coach Rod Brind'Amour said.

Buncha guys are getting sick. Atkinson missed a game too and is game time tonight.

[LWcrowfoot]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Why would offence over an insigificant sample size determine if a defenceman is a core piece or not? I can easily buy Hanafin not being a core player right now. But not for that reason.

Poorly structured on my part perhaps, it was a separate point.

Originally Posted by edslunch

Another big question is who takes over as #1D in the next 2-3 years as Gio inevitably starts to decline. I’m not sure I’d be so quick to ship out Brodie or Hamonic, especially with expansion coming up.

How do you bring both Brodie and Hamonic back though? Andersson and Valimaki both establishing themselves as NHL players this year, Kylington in the wings, you have to make room. All three of Stone, Brodie and Hamonic are UFA's in 2020. Stone is the obvious move (if you can) but one of the other two guys has to be shipped as well IMO.

As for replacing Gio well that's not easy. Hanifin and Valimaki are both potential stars on D, so we'll see what happens. Flames have been a mess with our goaltending but they've done a good job developing our defence.