[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[Enoch Root]

Hamilton's TOI is interesting...

He and Slavin lead even strength TOI, but he is 3rd in PP TOI, and of course there is virtually no SH TOI.

20 minutes per game total. I think that speaks to what he is.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Minor quibble... you have pointed out several times in the interest of demystifying 'advanced anaytics' that stats like Corsi are just counting things, so they are all 'counting stats'. I feel like the analytics community (not saying you in particular) uses that label to diminish their importance.

How does it diminish their importance? That is exactly what they are: counting stats, you count the number of events in question.

The misleading name is advanced stats - there is nothing advanced about them.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Minor quibble... you have pointed out several times in the interest of demystifying 'advanced anaytics' that stats like Corsi are just counting things, so they are all 'counting stats'. I feel like the analytics community (not saying you in particular) uses that label to diminish their importance.

Yeah it's somewhat confusing isn't it?

Counting stats by definition are goals, assists and points, +/-. But the events in analytics are "counted"

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

How does it diminish their importance? That is exactly what they are: counting stats, you count the number of events in question.

The misleading name is advanced stats - there is nothing advanced about them.

Also terms I dislike: "underlying stats", "fancy stats".

Mostly what we're talking about is shot-based metrics.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

How does it diminish their importance? That is exactly what they are: counting stats, you count the number of events in question.

The misleading name is advanced stats - there is nothing advanced about them.

Many analytics discussions have the tone of 'yeah, but those are just the counting stats' when looking at goals, assists and points to imply that the real picture is being missed. And they don't mean in the sense that those are the only stats that actually count

[Strange Brew]

It’s looking like the biggest off season moves for the Flames were changing the coach and swapping out Ferland for Lindholm.

In third place you have the emergence of Hanifin/Hamonic as a quality second pairing.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It’s looking like the biggest off season moves for the Flames were changing the coach and swapping out Ferland for Lindholm.

In third place you have the emergence of Hanifin/Hamonic as a quality second pairing.

I think most of us were saying Lindholm brings more to the table than Ferland in the summer. Better on draws, better two way player, PK presence ... and hopefully he holds serve on the offence and/or is a better fit for the top line.

So all is true to date, plus in the early going he's exploded. If the explosion is sustained and the Flames have gained another elite player (his production through 15 games is elite) than they've really done a great job in fixing the forwards, adding a good young defenseman, avoiding UFA issues, and locking up two core pieces in the place of one.

[kman35ca]

If you watch Carolina, they strategy just seems to be shooting from every where. But a lot of the shots seem to be from bad angles, just crossing the blueline, etc. I'm not real stats guy. But wouldn't that up there "Stats," with out showing that they aren't scoring much as of lately? They have taken a lil bit of a tumble as well after a promising start.

[Enoch Root]

Yeah, the trade was essentially that we get an upgrade on forward and the Canes get an upgrade on D, and Fox was thrown in to even it out.

But there were two other aspects to the trade from the Flames' perspective:

1) they needed to rebalance the F/D split, which they did, and
2) they wanted to fix the compete level, which they seem to have also accomplished

There have been two huge wins for the Flames from the trade:

1) Lindholm looks to be even better than the most enthusiastic of us had hoped, and
2) The Flames' D, despite the loss of Hamilton, is in even better shape than we hoped.

Not only does Brodano look like it's regaining its form, but Hanifin/Hamonic is getting better with every game as well. And then there are the kids.

The hope that the trade would rebalance the F/D situation is looking like a homerun: the Fs are substantially improved and the D looks not only not worse, but arguably better - and getting better every day.

Huge win for the Flames. I hope it turns into a big win for the Canes as well (but not too big)

[dino7c]

So 6 wins in 14 games for the Canes

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yeah, the trade was essentially that we get an upgrade on forward and the Canes get an upgrade on D, and Fox was thrown in to even it out.

But there were two other aspects to the trade from the Flames' perspective:

1) they needed to rebalance the F/D split, which they did, and
2) they wanted to fix the compete level, which they seem to have also accomplished

There have been two huge wins for the Flames from the trade:

1) Lindholm looks to be even better than the most enthusiastic of us had hoped, and
2) The Flames' D, despite the loss of Hamilton, is in even better shape than we hoped.

Not only does Brodano look like it's regaining its form, but Hanifin/Hamonic is getting better with every game as well. And then there are the kids.

The hope that the trade would rebalance the F/D situation is looking like a homerun: the Fs are substantially improved and the D looks not only not worse, but arguably better - and getting better every day.

Huge win for the Flames. I hope it turns into a big win for the Canes as well (but not too big)

And no headache with Ferland's contract this summer, or Hamilton's in 2.5 years, and the key components locked up for another 5.5 years at what looks like value.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Bingo

And no headache with Ferland's contract this summer, or Hamilton's in 2.5 years, and the key components locked up for another 5.5 years at what looks like value.

Looks like Value for Hanifin. Looks like an absolute steal fir Lindholm.

If Lindholm even slows down a bit and finishes with 25 goals and 65 points then as a R shot center/winger thats a 7M dollar player in todays NHL.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yeah, the trade was essentially that we get an upgrade on forward and the Canes get an upgrade on D, and Fox was thrown in to even it out.

But there were two other aspects to the trade from the Flames' perspective:

1) they needed to rebalance the F/D split, which they did, and
2) they wanted to fix the compete level, which they seem to have also accomplished

There have been two huge wins for the Flames from the trade:

1) Lindholm looks to be even better than the most enthusiastic of us had hoped, and
2) The Flames' D, despite the loss of Hamilton, is in even better shape than we hoped.

Not only does Brodano look like it's regaining its form, but Hanifin/Hamonic is getting better with every game as well. And then there are the kids.

The hope that the trade would rebalance the F/D situation is looking like a homerun: the Fs are substantially improved and the D looks not only not worse, but arguably better - and getting better every day.

Huge win for the Flames. I hope it turns into a big win for the Canes as well (but not too big)

Pretty good looking D core, moving forward.

Andersson is 3 months older than Hanifin, which is often overlooked.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think most of us were saying Lindholm brings more to the table than Ferland in the summer. Better on draws, better two way player, PK presence ... and hopefully he holds serve on the offence and/or is a better fit for the top line.

So all is true to date, plus in the early going he's exploded. If the explosion is sustained and the Flames have gained another elite player (his production through 15 games is elite) than they've really done a great job in fixing the forwards, adding a good young defenseman, avoiding UFA issues, and locking up two core pieces in the place of one.

Bennett not panning out as a 4 OA pick was a huge set back in the hopes of building a contender with this build. Lindholm has the potential to completely erase that miss and put us back in the contender picture.

A number one goalie is our next mountain to climb, as that could easily dismiss us from a chance to win a cup.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Bennett not panning out as a 4 OA pick was a huge set back in the hopes of building a contender with this build. Lindholm has the potential to completely erase that miss and put us back in the contender picture.

A number one goalie is our next mountain to climb, as that could easily dismiss us from a chance to win a cup.

Lindholm exceeding expectations and Bennett finding his feet add two more players to the core (Bennett jury out of course) and change things dramatically.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by dino7c

So 6 wins in 14 games for the Canes

Yeah, it's embarrassing that this was posted in this thread one short week ago...

Originally Posted by New Era

It wasn't part of the trade, but dramatically improved their team. Getting rid of Bill Peters was a massive win for the Hurricanes. No one was upset with his departure and the Hurricanes are much better as a result.

On 28 October the Hurricanes had 13 points in ten games on the strength of a 6-3-1 record, 32 goals and a goal-differential of +3. The Flames had 11 points in 11 games and a -3 goal differential. But already by 28 October Carolina had two ROWs in their previous seven games. Today they Since then they have added no wins, three losses and only 1 O/T point. Since 28 October the Flames have won four straight games—two at home and two on the road, and have scored 16 goals.

It's probably still far too early to assess Bill Peters's impact both here and in Carolina, but I do think it is fairly safe to say that if there is one team that is considerably better as a result of this coaching change it is the Flames.

[djsFlames]

Sam embracing his inner Ferland even though he's not putting up points consistently is bringing value to the table. Which is what you want right now. Still just 4 points in 15 but he turned the tide in a few games with hits and fights that ended up in huge wins so that's something. More than we were getting from him the last 2 seasons. That's what you want from any player when they're not lighting the scoreboard up.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

With Hamilton everything is towards the net, much like Frolik up front, who plays a role in driving up the 3M shot metrics every year despite not having a big shot or shooting when he's in a position to actually score.

I just wanted to quote this line because I feel like that is something we subtracted with the Hamilton trade, and something Boston subtracted when they traded Hamilton too.

I wonder if this lack of creativity is something you can afford to have on your top pair. Look at Brodie in that role, he'll walk the line, which either gets the puck to Giordano deep or allows him to do that little dropdown pass to the half-wall and get the defense moving until there's a dangerous chance. It still produces shot attempts, but a different kind of shot attempt because it's forward shot attempts rather than a blind point shot.

I do think Ferland is getting treated a bit unfairly in this thread though. Wasn't his fault we had a serious team need for a RHS top six forward. I would rather have Ferland AND Lindholm in a perfect world. Which is what I thought the original trade was, like an optimistic dreamer. Just Hamilton for Lindy/Hanifin.

[Azure]

Lindholm playing so well gives Bennett time to develop properly.

The other thing is people are talking about players like Neal not necessarily getting enough ice time, which is a good problem to have. Great indicator of depth.

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Lindholm exceeding expectations and Bennett finding his feet add two more players to the core (Bennett jury out of course) and change things dramatically.

The "New" Core

Mark Giordano
Matthew Tkachuk
Johnny Gaudreau
Sean Monahan
Noah Hanifin
Elias Lindholm
Juuso Välimäki
Mikael Backlund
James Neal
Sam Bennett
Rasmus Andersson