MLB Free Agency Thread.

[moon]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns

This is disturbing.

JP has floating an offer to Wells of 7 years, 126 million.

18 million a year. This is insane. Absolutely insane.

That seems like a lot of money for Vernon Wells, but unlike Jays fans I don't think he is an elite player.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Jiri, give me a break with those type of crap comments.

JP couldn't make this move even if he wanted to, this is pretty much an upper management and ownership decision.

If you really want me to, I could go over a list of goals and objectives I would like to see done which would make me approve, and if JP does any of them, I would praise him.

What exactly has Vernon Wells done to get such money? He hits 30 Homers, not exactly a dime a dozen, but its common enough, not to warrent 18 million. If we are paying him the CF premium, than I suggest we stop. We have 2 capable CFs manning our corners (Johnson and Rios), who could move to CF, Rios for example has gold glove calibre defense.

Sorry just look at this thread, and every single piece of news results in you saying it's horrible.

On not re-signing Zaun: "Looks like JP dropped the ball again.

Zaun, who would have re-upped during the season at a reduced rate is now being sought after pretty heavily by some other teams. Not shocking as he is one of the few catchers who can actually hit Right handed pitching with effiency."

Early in the offseason: "Well so far we've upgraded at DH, taken a major hit at catcher (as in don't have one), still don't have one of a 2B/SS (Adams isn't starting next year), lost our #3 pitcher and lost our Setup guy.

Chips better start falling soon, otherwise this has the makings of a disaster."

On the Jays lineup: "This is a digusting lineup. Absolutely no balance. We are so RH heavy it is amazing. Zaun/Overbay are the only ones who can bat LH on this team unless lind makes the jump.

We are going to be in some serious trouble with regards to splits."

On the possible signing of Meche "Rotoworld reports Jays have upped their offer to Meche to 4/40 million.

This is ugly. Very ugly."

"I also think JP is one of the worst GMs in the league too - his drafting record really doesn't impress me at all."

And so on. Sorry man its like a broken record. I just don't think JP can do anything to make you happy. You seem be waiting for any reason to crticize him.

[moon]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Sorry just look at this thread, and every single piece of news results in you saying it's horrible.

On not re-signing Zaun: "Looks like JP dropped the ball again.

Zaun, who would have re-upped during the season at a reduced rate is now being sought after pretty heavily by some other teams. Not shocking as he is one of the few catchers who can actually hit Right handed pitching with effiency."

Early in the offseason: "Well so far we've upgraded at DH, taken a major hit at catcher (as in don't have one), still don't have one of a 2B/SS (Adams isn't starting next year), lost our #3 pitcher and lost our Setup guy.

Chips better start falling soon, otherwise this has the makings of a disaster."

On the Jays lineup: "This is a digusting lineup. Absolutely no balance. We are so RH heavy it is amazing. Zaun/Overbay are the only ones who can bat LH on this team unless lind makes the jump.

We are going to be in some serious trouble with regards to splits."

On the possible signing of Meche "Rotoworld reports Jays have upped their offer to Meche to 4/40 million.

This is ugly. Very ugly."

"I also think JP is one of the worst GMs in the league too - his drafting record really doesn't impress me at all."

And so on. Sorry man its like a broken record. I just don't think JP can do anything to make you happy. You seem be waiting for any reason to crticize him.

To be fair although not to the same extent I agree with pretty much everything that CarmonLS said in the quoted posts.

Now I am not a fanof the Jays so it skews my view a bit in that I am not so heated about the opinions or so optimistic as a fan would be but I think Riccardi has done a pretty weak job since taking over adn the moves this year don't make me change that view.

[JiriHrdina]

Fair enough. I'll let 'er go.

[CaramonLS]

He resigned Zaun, that made me happy.

What the **** do you want Jiri? I disagree with the direction the organization is going with some of these signings. Want me to be a fanboi? Am I allowed to be critical of certain moves?

You are the one making this about JP, not me and apparently I'm not the only one who takes issue with some of this stuff either.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

He resigned Zaun, that made me happy.

What the **** do you want Jiri? I disagree with the direction the organization is going with some of these signings. Want me to be a fanboi? Am I allowed to be critical of certain moves?

You are the one making this about JP, not me and apparently I'm not the only one who takes issue with some of this stuff either.

Calm down. I'm allowed to challenge you on your opinions just as others challenge folks on the main board that focus on the negative about certain players always. Defend your position - that's what the site is about.

You are allowed to be critical of certain moves, but if you want to demonstrate that you are looking at this objectively then admit when he does do something that is good (like you do above re. Zaun). Otherwise you come off as someone that simply hates JP regardless of what moves he makes. If I'm wrong - so be it.

[Flickered Flame]

Well I could care less about the Jays so here is my take on what JP has or hasn't done this offseason.

Signing Thomas is a decent signing, the only concern should be how much the Big Hurt has left. The rest of the moves-Zaun, Clayton, Stairs, Gomez are really non impact type of moves. Unfortunately Zaun will play a big role on the team. Where JP has failed is that he hasn't improved his pitching staff at all. You can have all the hitting you want but if you can't pitch you can't win. Meche and other pitchers have been overpaid and maybe thats a positive for the Jays, why would anyone in their right mind pay Meche and Lilley that kind of money?

As for Wells, that is a bargin and if he accepts that offer then imo the Jays are laughing. However, I don't think he would sign a new deal now and 2ndly I don't think Wells is as great as what he is made out to be. If I were a Jays fan, I would be hoping that the Jays trade Well and get several players in return. They still have holes to fill and maybe by trading VW they could find a middle infielder and another starting pitcher.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

As for Wells, that is a bargin and if he accepts that offer then imo the Jays are laughing. However, I don't think he would sign a new deal now and 2ndly I don't think Wells is as great as what he is made out to be. If I were a Jays fan, I would be hoping that the Jays trade Well and get several players in return. They still have holes to fill and maybe by trading VW they could find a middle infielder and another starting pitcher.

A bargain???

Thats one million more a year than what Beltran makes and 4 million more than what Pujols makes.

I know those contracts, especially Pujols who should be the highest paid guy in the MLB, are a bit older, but even with the money being thrown around there is no way that Wells should be making close to these guys and no way he should be making more.

18 million a year and he should be thanking the lord someone was dumb enough to sign him for that. He is not a top tier guy.

[Flickered Flame]

Originally Posted by moon

A bargain???

Thats one million more a year than what Beltran makes and 4 million more than what Pujols makes.

I know those contracts, especially Pujols who should be the highest paid guy in the MLB, are a bit older, but even with the money being thrown around there is no way that Wells should be making close to these guys and no way he should be making more.

18 million a year and he should be thanking the lord someone was dumb enough to sign him for that. He is not a top tier guy.

Imo I could see him getting even more on the open market.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Calm down. I'm allowed to challenge you on your opinions just as others challenge folks on the main board that focus on the negative about certain players always. Defend your position - that's what the site is about.

You are allowed to be critical of certain moves, but if you want to demonstrate that you are looking at this objectively then admit when he does do something that is good (like you do above re. Zaun). Otherwise you come off as someone that simply hates JP regardless of what moves he makes. If I'm wrong - so be it.

Get ****ing bent Jiri.

You are the one who comes in claiming that I am out to get JP. I'm sorry I haven't commented on every single thing that has gone on around here. Would you like my opinion on the illustrious Jason Smith too while we're at it?

Don't accuse me of having displayed a bias in this thread that doesn't exist either.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

Imo I could see him getting even more on the open market.

Agreed, which isn't to say a franchise like the Jays can afford to dedicate that amount of money to a player like Wells.

But if he hit the open market i think he would get at LEAST that given the contracts handed out this summer.

But here's what I like about this - it will tell the Jays what VW is going to do. If he wants to stay at all this deal should be at a minimum a starting point. If he rejects it outright you know he's not going to sign and you move him.

So at least you know.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

Imo I could see him getting even more on the open market.

For a point of reference, anywhere between 18-20 million would make him 4th or 5th on the list on MLB's top paid players. Ramirez makes 18.279.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

For a point of reference, anywhere between 18-20 million would make him 4th or 5th on the list on MLB's top paid players. Ramirez makes 18.279.

But that contract is what 3 years old now? This potential Wells deal wouldn't take effect until next year. Carlos Lee just got 100 million over 6 years, just over 16 a year. Every year salary's go up. But maybe you forgot about this thing called inflation....even at 3% that means a 17 million dollar contract today is equal to a 15 million dollar contract from 4 years ago.

If a guy like Pujols was on the open market he'd get Rodriguez like money. I don't think Pujols has his 6 years service time yet so that affects his value. When he's got the chance to make the big money, he'll be all over it and end up in New York or LA. Comparing guys who aren't unrestricted to restricted is two totally different things just like hockey. In fact it probably costs a lot more to draft and develop a pro baseball player on average than it does for a hockey player. Hence why free agents can get such big salaries.

Wells numbers in his career thus far compare very favorably to Beltrans as he approached free agency. Beltran got a huge money deal, and if Wells hit's the open maket he probably would too. 18 million a year for 7 years is probably the price of a guy like Wells. Now it's up to management to decide if thats what they want to do, or if they should look at parlaying him into multiple players and seeing where they can go with that.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

If a guy like Pujols was on the open market he'd get Rodriguez like money. I don't think Pujols has his 6 years service time yet so that affects his value. When he's got the chance to make the big money, he'll be all over it and end up in New York or LA.

I think St. Louis will be able to sign him. Money is not an issue for them and for a guy like Pujos they can match NY and Bos if they want.

I know restricted and unrestricted are hard to compare and inflation but it still seems way too much to me. Wells is not one of the top ten guys in MLB not sure if he is top 30 so for him to make that much jsut doesn't seem worth it to me. Especially not for a team like the Jays who although they have money can't just throw it around like the big boys.

[Jiggy_12]

VW is a franchise player, so yes, the 18 million per season is money well spent.

Its ludicrous to think 18 million a year could be "worth it". But thats the market...so be it.

[alan21]

Baseball salaries are insane but here's the thing. Perhaps I'm just being blinded by the fact I've been a Jays fan all my life but 18/year for VW doesn't seem ludacris at all. The only knock on him was that he was a slow starter, which he adjusted to last season. Every contender needs to be strong up the middle. If we're so worried about who's at short then why are we considering not bringing back a gold glover like Wells? If we can retain his services for the next 7 years even at 20/year, that's not exactly a bargain but it's a major step backwards if the oppourtunity is passed up. The only way I'd considering dealing him is if we got a couple starters or a starter plus a proven shortstop. I can't say I feel confident about VW being in a Jays uniform if the Jays aren't even including him in marketing campaigns. A trade will go down beofre spring training and we won't get much in return due to the fact that most teams know he's going to be up for grabs in a year anyways. So the Jays lose out ocne again.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

But that contract is what 3 years old now? This potential Wells deal wouldn't take effect until next year. Carlos Lee just got 100 million over 6 years, just over 16 a year. Every year salary's go up. But maybe you forgot about this thing called inflation....even at 3% that means a 17 million dollar contract today is equal to a 15 million dollar contract from 4 years ago.

You see in some cases you may be right, but just remember the last contract the Jays decided to dole out in the late 90s. Inflation in baseball doesn't work that that. Otherwise Pujols would be making 25+ million RIGHT now.

Thats right, Carlos Delgado, 19 million a year long term. He go about 13 million on his next contract, while still maintaining the exact same level of play when he was getting paid 19.

Right now you've got a lot of teams trying out outspend their crappiness, KC and Chicago for example with a very limited talent pool right now. The RedSox and Yankees have probably paid the most money they've ever paid in single off seasons with the Posting fees on those Japanese pitchers.

Now, those teams aren't going to be spending that type of cash next season - AND there is going to be a lot more talent available on the market.

Delgado was signed for that exact reason, and low and behold it was a complete crippling disaster for the organization.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Jiggy_12

VW is a franchise player, so yes, the 18 million per season is money well spent.

Its ludicrous to think 18 million a year could be "worth it". But thats the market...so be it.

I guess we all have different conceptions of Franchise players.

Wells in my opinion simply isn't that special player you tie yourself down with. He has had 1 season, yes 1 with an OPS over .900, and only 2 seasons of 30+ HRs, and OBPs of .305, .359, .337, .320, .357. He still hits Right handers at a poor clip, with a career OPS of under 800 (.797) as well.

Those numbers, coupled with the fact we have a CF waiting in the wings (Rios) to replace him just scream red flags at me.

Think of it this way: Bobby Abreu is a free agent next season, in fact no one even wanted him except the yankees. He wont be getting the same kind of money he got from his last contract, which was around 13 million a season - BUT, he is also career a much better hitter than Wells. Better stolen bases, far better OBP, more doubles and close to as much power. Yet, no one will consider giving him that much money or that long of a term.

So think of it this way. Rios+Abreu or Rios+Wells. One combination hits better than the other, is cheaper and steals more bases. Oh, and with only a minimal downgrade in defense, if at all (Abreu has a gold glove too, you know).

Which one would you choose? They both fill the exact same holes as Rios/Wells would (CF/RF).

[flambers]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I guess we all have different conceptions of Franchise players.

Wells in my opinion simply isn't that special player you tie yourself down with. He has had 1 season, yes 1 with an OPS over .900, and only 2 seasons of 30+ HRs, and OBPs of .305, .359, .337, .320, .357. He still hits Right handers at a poor clip, with a career OPS of under 800 (.797) as well.

Those numbers, coupled with the fact we have a CF waiting in the wings (Rios) to replace him just scream red flags at me.

Think of it this way: Bobby Abreu is a free agent next season, in fact no one even wanted him except the yankees. He wont be getting the same kind of money he got from his last contract, which was around 13 million a season - BUT, he is also career a much better hitter than Wells. Better stolen bases, far better OBP, more doubles and close to as much power. Yet, no one will consider giving him that much money or that long of a term.

So think of it this way. Rios+Abreu or Rios+Wells. One combination hits better than the other, is cheaper and steals more bases. Oh, and with only a minimal downgrade in defense, if at all (Abreu has a gold glove too, you know).

Which one would you choose? They both fill the exact same holes as Rios/Wells would (CF/RF).

Without a question I would choose Wells and Rios. Wells is a Franchise type of player he is allot more than just a good hitter. Wells is a great Center Fielder who has won two Gold Gloves in a row.

However, If I had to bet I bet Wells turns down the offer. As I believe wells want to be become a UFA and sign with Texas next year.

Hopefully I am wrong.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by flambers

Without a question I would choose Wells and Rios. Wells is a Franchise type of player he is allot more than just a good hitter. Wells is a great Center Fielder who has won two Gold Gloves in a row.

However, If I had to bet I bet Wells turns down the offer. As I believe wells want to be become a UFA and sign with Texas next year.

Hopefully I am wrong.

You aren't making any sense. At least qualify your answer a little bit. "Franchise player" is a nice tag to label someone and throw it around, but Wells hasn't done enough to achieve that sort of label.