2018 NFL thread - Page 30 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Erick Estrada · 09-01-2018, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Member that time the raiders weren’t gonna trade Mack? I member.

Well I knew Gruden was bold but rumours from insiders were that the Raiders were not interested in trading him and I never said it wouldn't happen only that I expected him to report to camp. When Gruden said the defense was bad with Mack that's when I knew he may have the stones to do it but reportedly Davis loves Mack and wanted to keep him. The truth is that no team is going to win a Super Bowl with their starting QB and DE on $100 million deals. The reason the Jets and Bears were the teams interested is because they had rookie QB's as theres a lot of established teams that could use Mack but would not be able to fit in an Aaron Donald type of contract.

As a Raiders fan it's a bittersweet day. I like that we will be getting likely two top 15 picks but it's never a good day when you lose a player as talented as Mack. That said the Raiders defense has been bad with Mack. Really bad at times and I will always go back to the end of the 2016 season when Carr was lost for the season and the Raiders played the Broncos and Texans in succession. Both of those teams had horrible offensive lines and two of the most sacked QB's in the league. When the team needed the defense to step up Mack was a no-show. To me this is the reason you can't pay a DE all that money and it's because you can take them out of games. It's why the Dolphins crashed and burned paying Nadomican Suh all that money and why the Rams will be in a whole lot of trouble in 2021 when the have to pay Goff. It's a QB driven league and as Packers fans can attest.

DropIt · 09-01-2018, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by transplant99

hate seeing Mack coming into the division but no question the cost is going to be massive.

Packers were in on him right til the end but Gute clearly decided he wasnt worth the cost.

Not sure this helps the Bears as much as he could some other teams other than helping provide shorter fields for a very challenged (to this point at least) offense. Mind you Mack is a freakish athlete....so maybe he can line up as a TE or something.

Lots of changes to the offense. Challenged to this point but obviously Pace, Nagy and co. Believe in what theyve seen.

The Bears biggest hole, offense or defense, was pass rush and they've been trying to address that for years.
The cost is High, but The Bears would likely have spent one of those first round picks on a pass rusher anyways, so to give up another one to ensure one of the best in the game is fine by me.

Erick Estrada · 09-01-2018, 09:55 AM

The NFL is a QB driven league. The Broncos with a declining Peyton Manning and Von Miller won a Super Bowl. That same team with Von Miller and no Manning has been pretty bad. If Trubisky doesn't become at least league average (he's shown nothing to date he can) this deal does nothing for the Bears. The Bears gave up the most that an NFL team has ever given up in a trade for a defensive player so it's not like the Raiders didn't get good value here.

DropIt · 09-01-2018, 10:01 AM

I wouldn't have called Peyton Manning much of a league average QB when they won the super bowl... hell they won games with Osweiler that year and nobody would claim he is even be low average.

The difference though is the Bears already had a top 10 defense last year, have one of the league's best D coordinators in Vic Fangio. Mack will make a world of difference on the Bears roster with a legitimate pass rush.

I have no worries about Trubisky going forward, but even if he doesn't pan out as promised, it's good to see the team go for it, and attemptnto stop being a divisional doormat.

Erick Estrada · 09-01-2018, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DropIt

I wouldn't have called Peyton Manning much of a league average QB when they won the super bowl... hell they won games with Osweiler that year and nobody would claim he is even be low average.

The difference though is the Bears already had a top 10 defense last year, have one of the league's best D coordinators in Vic Fangio. Mack will make a world of difference on the Bears roster with a legitimate pass rush.

I have no worries about Trubisky going forward, but even if he doesn't pan out as promised, it's good to see the team go for it, and attemptnto stop being a divisional doormat.

Yep and since Manning they haven't had league average QB play. One thing about Manning is that he was cerebral and could read defences at the line of scrimmage so even on the decline he could at least change the play into a favourable situation and he didn't put them in position to lose any of those playoff games. They would have never won that Super Bowl with Osweiler.

I can't say anything bad about Mack as the Bears are getting a very good player. Just don't expect him to be a game disrupter like Donald as Mack is more of an all around defender.

Senator Clay Davis · 09-01-2018, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The NFL is a QB driven league. The Broncos with a declining Peyton Manning and Von Miller won a Super Bowl. That same team with Von Miller and no Manning has been pretty bad. If Trubisky doesn't become at least league average (he's shown nothing to date he can) this deal does nothing for the Bears. The Bears gave up the most that an NFL team has ever given up in a trade for a defensive player so it's not like the Raiders didn't get good value here.

The odds the Raiders draft a player that's 70% as good as Mack are very low, and that's using an average drafting team. Given that the Raiders are consistently below average at drafting, they are highly unlikely to get true value here. Especially since you gave up a player playing one of the three most important positions in the league. Yes, it's a QB league, but you'll also notice teams that can't rush the passer don't win much either.

You traded a guy whose trajectory is HOFer. The odds you even do as well as breaking even on this trade are quite low. And Gruden is a noted roster destroyer, so I'd be extremely nervous if I were a Raider fan.

Erick Estrada · 09-01-2018, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

The odds the Raiders draft a player that's 70% as good as Mack are very low, and that's using an average drafting team. Given that the Raiders are consistently below average at drafting, they are highly unlikely to get true value here. Especially since you gave up a player playing one of the three most important positions in the league. Yes, it's a QB league, but you'll also notice teams that can't rush the passer don't win much either.

You traded a guy whose trajectory is HOFer. The odds you even do as well as breaking even on this trade are quite low. And Gruden is a noted roster destroyer, so I'd be extremely nervous if I were a Raider fan.

Well the goal is to win the Super Bowl not to collect HOF players. Is Mack going to win a Super Bowl in Chicago? Doubtful. Were the Raiders going to win a Super Bowl with two players tied up in $100 million deals? Doubtful. Did the Dolphins prosper by giving Suh that record deal? Nope. Lets not forget the Bears are going to make him the highest paid defensive player in the league so it's not like Mack is a free addition to their roster as he takes a lot of cap space away. Raiders as of now have four 1st round picks over the next two seasons and it's just a matter of finding good starters not HOF players as I would take depth over having all your eggs in one basket.

transplant99 · 09-01-2018, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well the goal is to win the Super Bowl not to collect HOF players. Is Mack going to win a Super Bowl in Chicago? Doubtful. Were the Raiders going to win a Super Bowl with two players tied up in $100 million deals? Doubtful. Did the Dolphins prosper by giving Suh that record deal? Nope. Lets not forget the Bears are going to make him the highest paid defensive player in the league so it's like Mack is a free addition to their roster as he takes a lot of cap space away. Raiders as of now have four 1st round picks over the next two seasons and it's just a matter of finding good starters not HOF players as I would take depth over having all your eggs in one basket.

While true..is there a single SB winner that didn't/doesn't have HOF players on it?

Point being...the Raiders are a worse team than they were yesterday. The future is nothing but maybes and hope so's.

Look no further than the NHL team to the North for proof of that.

Erick Estrada · 09-01-2018, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by transplant99

While true..is there a single SB winner that didn't/doesn't have HOF players on it?

Is there a SB winner that had the highest paid defensive player in the league? You guys need to realize the defense wasn't good with Mack so without him it's not like it will be worse. It's not like teams were lining up to trade for Mack and that's because there are no contending teams that can take on his contract demands. If the Raiders make Mack the highest paid defensive player in the league then they wouldn't have been able to retain Cooper and Bryant next season. It wasn't an easy decision but in the big picture it's probably the right one but they need to ensure they get players with those picks. Also we have to wait and see who the roster player they are also getting back is.

Also the team to the North is also proof of what happens when you have all your salary cap in the basket of a few players which is proving my point of why the trade had to be made.

d_phaneuf · 09-01-2018, 01:12 PM

Agree with erick

Hurts to lose mack, but this is the kind of deal the pats have been making for a decade

Getting two firsts, plus it sounds like something else, for a guy about to take up between 12 and 15 percent of the cap is going to be better in the long run. Thats the thing people are missing too, its whatever the bears send back plus the cap space that can now be back

Ian rappaport said the personnel people he talked to are saying its a toss up who got the better but that the raiders definitely got value

Erick Estrada · 09-01-2018, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d_phaneuf

Agree with erick

Hurts to lose mack, but this is the kind of deal the pats have been making for a decade

Getting two firsts, plus it sounds like something else, for a guy about to take up between 12 and 15 percent of the cap is going to be better in the long run. Thats the thing people are missing too, its whatever the bears send back plus the cap space that can now be back

Ian rappaport said the personnel people he talked to are saying its a toss up who got the better but that the raiders definitely got value

The highest a defensive player has ever brought back in a trade was a 1st and two 3rds for Jarred Allen. This return is much better than that and that's a deal that worked out well for both teams as the Chiefs got longtime LT Branden Albert and Jamaal Charles out of those picks.

DropIt · 09-01-2018, 01:33 PM

The Bears also traded Wilbur Marshall for 2 first round picks and that turned out to be a giant mistake.
I just look at the cost of what New Orleans paid to move up to draft Marcus Davenport... th spent 2 first round picks on him and I have an idea of which player may be better...

ResAlien · 09-01-2018, 01:36 PM

In other stupid moves made by AFC West teams news it looks like Denver is going to keep Lynch on the roster. I guess one good quarter in the 4th preseason game in three years is enough to earn a spot.

d_phaneuf · 09-01-2018, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The highest a defensive player has ever brought back in a trade was a 1st and two 3rds for Jarred Allen. This return is much better than that and that's a deal that worked out well for both teams as the Chiefs got longtime LT Branden Albert and Jamaal Charles out of those picks.

Yep, plus while this year we are worse on d, but we werent winning the super bowl this year, i think the goal is playoffs, but a successful season is just improvement

They clearly love the 3 rookies on the line, key and hurst were legit top 10 talents who fell for different reasons but look the part so far, and pj hall is showing up too

But as soon as next season, as a whole, theres a good chance the team is better with possibly a top 10 pick, i think top 15 at worse as that division is really good, and also 23m in cap space to improve multiple positions on the defense

Ill really miss watching mack terrorize teams, but in the medium and long term this will be good

devo22 · 09-01-2018, 01:40 PM

couple of other picks involved in the deal too. Bears get a 2nd, Raiders a 3rd.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1035973285853491200

d_phaneuf · 09-01-2018, 01:42 PM

I also dont think this ends will for the bears, if trubisky ends up being worthy of a big deal in a few years, which if they are going to win he will need to be, they are going to be in the same position with cap issues

To me this is a move you make as a final piece move, why the packers made a ton of sense, not for a team thats still building and very likely still 4th in their division

devo22 · 09-01-2018, 01:58 PM

Steelers have released Landry Jones, thank god! Happy that they roll with Dobbs and Rudolph instead.

DropIt · 09-01-2018, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d_phaneuf

Yep, plus while this year we are worse on d, but we werent winning the super bowl this year, i think the goal is playoffs, but a successful season is just improvement

They clearly love the 3 rookies on the line, key and hurst were legit top 10 talents who fell for different reasons but look the part so far, and pj hall is showing up too

But as soon as next season, as a whole, theres a good chance the team is better with possibly a top 10 pick, i think top 15 at worse as that division is really good, and also 23m in cap space to improve multiple positions on the defense

Ill really miss watching mack terrorize teams, but in the medium and long term this will be good

The Raiders improve while the Bears get worse in the long and short term? That pick won't be top 10, and the Bears should be a wildcard discussion now. You may get into the middle of the first round but again, 99% of the time you won't find a Khalil Mack there.

devo22 · 09-01-2018, 02:06 PM

Gruden is having a fun day at the office.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1035981682787188738

Senator Clay Davis · 09-01-2018, 02:16 PM

Gruden seems to have somehow gotten worse at roster management then when he was with the Bucs, so Raider fans I hope you're ready for a rather ugly couple year until he gets canned.

Edit: A fifth rounder for McCarron? Lol good lord.