Chrismas trees removed in Sea-Tac airport

[Red]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm not splitting hairs, I'm pointing out the obvious. The RCMP uniform (including the hat) has been drastically changed and it had nothing to do with wearing a turban. Where is the outrage over that?



Nobody has to adjust for anything. What the hell do you or I care if an RCMP officer is wearing a turban instead of a big hat? What's the difference? Where is the harm? I don't have to wear a turban. The other officers don't have to wear a turban. You and I haven't adjusted to a damn thing other than, for me at least, seeing an RCMP officer wearing a turban once in my life. It was a pretty painless adjustment - he had a turban on. Case closed.



That's not an automatic by any stretch. A lot of people wearing turbans were born here. They are just as Canadian as anyone else.

I understand the whole "if you can't wear a hairnet..." argument and I agree with it, but that's a separate issue. Having a turban on your head as opposed to a big stiff hat doesn't take away from one's ability to be a cop. Refusing to wear a hairnet would actually have an impact on your ability to sling greasy burgers and serve up french fries without a clump of hair for a condiment.

The "chose to be here" comment was more about the MacD than the country. You chose to work here so do as everyone else does, same goes for the RCMP. You serve the community and need to respect the uniform.


Anyways, this whole subject is really touchy. If you're offended by people drinking beer you don't go to Germany during octoberfest, and if you do you don't complain about it, you need to accept the tradition. I mean for some people women wearing pants is offensive, do we make them wear dresses? How about we dress them like bee keepers? Oops, now I've gone too far:-)

My point has always been that you need to respect other peoples traditions. You can't come here and demand to change everything to your liking.

Going back to the original post, what the heck has the Christmas tree ever done to this guy? How can it possibly be offensive to anyone, seriously?

[habernac]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16150563/

Airline workers add their own trees. Rabbi gets hate mail. Next time, maybe he'll use his head and not threaten to sue.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Red

What Sikh tradition in the RCMP are you talking about?

Nice try.
I'm talking about the Sikh tradition to wear a turban in general. It doesn't conflict with the job what so ever, so who cares what's on someones head?
What if a Christian RCMP officer wears a cross around their neck? That's not part of the "traditional" uniform either, should they have to take it off?

The same religious freedom that should let people put up Christmas trees, should also let a Sikh wear a turban in the RCMP.

[Phaneuf3]

HAHA yes! best possible outcome from this. this rabbi was shown to be the ass he was and the christmas decorations are simply moved.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Ayrahb

-FlamesAddiction, you have an emblem of a Croatian hockey club as your avatar. Do you have any thoughts on Christmas celebration in Croatia?

.

I have never actually a Christmas there, but from what I gather talking to friends and relatives, it is not nearly as commercial as Christmas here. It is still mostly a spiritual holiday. Santa Claus is not a big thing there. Children receive gifts on behalf of saints (the saint that represents their town or region). Our family celebrated St. Stephens day more than actual Christmas day.

Decorations are often organic and homemade. Wheat is a common theme and is probably more symbolic of Christmas than Christmas trees. After the celebrations, it was tradition to feed the wheat to the birds. My dad said that it was tradition to bring hay into the house at Christmas and the kids would sleep in it simulating the story of Jesus. There is also a lot of emphasis put on food and fasting.

It might be different now though. Being brought into the sphere of western capitalism, I am sure the commercialism must be sneaking in more and more.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Red

My point has always been that you need to respect other peoples traditions. You can't come here and demand to change everything to your liking.

Again, a lot of people didn't "come here". They were born here. Nobody is demanding a change of everything to their own liking. That's a myth, or maybe a cliché. Either way it's not true.

I've always found the reverence for the blue hat specifically, and the uniform as a whole, to be a little strange. I mean it's just a hat. What is the difference? It was 1990 when that rule was changed. Has it had any effect on the ability of the Mounties to do their job? Not as far as I can tell. The only thing I can think of that it has accomplished, and this has to be considered a good thing, is that the federal police force has a membership that is more reflective of the population of the country. There are plenty of Sikhs in Canada after all. There should be some members of the RCMP that are as well and if that means that they wear a turban as part of the uniform, what's the problem?

Yada yada yada. The turban issue is settled. It's not going to change back.

[fanforever1986]

Well, the trees are going back up, so ends a debate that became nasty to say the least.

The Rabbi said he never requested that the trees be taken down, just that they put up something to represent his holiday.

Does it have to be this complicated? People need to calm there nerves a bit.

The holiday season is becoming gross.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Red

The "chose to be here" comment was more about the MacD than the country. You chose to work here so do as everyone else does, same goes for the RCMP. You serve the community and need to respect the uniform.

Honestly if someone is willing to serve and protect the public by being a member of the RCMP I couldn't care less what they wear on their noggin.

It's actually my social studies teacher from grade 8 about 17 years ago that turned me around on that issue. For some reason a few of us were discussing it, and I was arguing that turbans shouldn't be allowed in the RCMP. I asked our teacher Mr. Smith what he thought and his response was simply "why do you even care? Shouldn't you be more concerned about if he's a good cop?".

Pretty much instantly changed my perspective on the issue completely. Good teacher that Mr. Smith.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

HAHA yes! best possible outcome from this. this rabbi was shown to be the ass he was and the christmas decorations are simply moved.

The best possible outcome would have been if the Airport simply would have added a 1 foot tall electronic chanukiah to it's display.

No tearing down of trees, no lawsuits, no 'mini-rebellion', no media coverage.

If they had done that, what might have been the worst thing that could happen? Other ethnic groups may have approched the airport manager about placing ethnic specific decorations about also.

The airport staff wasn't busy enough to keep them from putting up the decorations, then bringing them down again, then putting up their own decoration in their area. (and what would we have heard if one of the airline counter staff placed a chanukiah at their service desk? Most likely nothing.)

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Agreed.

let the majority celebrate what they want, they way they have for hundreds of years...."public" place or not.

How is that a comprimise?

That is just a dismissal of my tradition (celebrated in Canada for hundreds of years) with the majority rules argument.

In the City Hall example, why can they not add one electric chanukiah to the trees, holly, wreaths, poinsettas on display? I'll forgo asking for 'Happy Hanukah' banners and displays of dreidels (spinning tops).

[transplant99]

That is just a dismissal of my tradition

Bull.

No one is "dismissing" anything. They are celebrating THIER tradition as they always have. It was the Rabbi who was doing (or trying to) the dismissing.

This is North America...where the tradition is, and always has been, putting up a decorated tree to celebrate the season. No one is forcing anyone to do the same if they dont want to.

What is happening however, is those who dont want to....are trying to change the way most do celebrate, including putting up trees in public places. The trees hurt no one, and please many. Whats wrong with that?

You want to decorate your place with whatever you like (naked Marilyn Manson mannequins sporting dyed leather strips or whatever)...knock yourself out. Thats the beauty of freedom. Just stop infringing on others trying to do the same thing.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken

They don't have to spend frivolous dollars on Christmas decorations. But the fact that they do choose to waste money on this does not in turn force them to waste money on other decorations. I hate a lot of things that the government wastes money on, but that does not in turn lead me to sue the government if they don't waste money on something that's important to me. The very idea is ridiculous.

The government (regardless of which level) is supposed to represent everybody. They should not be exclusive to anybody. By displaying decorations in their public spaces that are clearly of a "Christmas time theme" they exclude me. By refusing to acknowledge and consider my concern they dismiss me. That is where the problem is.

To say that they are generic decorations of the season is a justification of the included to the excluded, Like the single black member of a one time whites only golf club - he can get a drink at the bar, but he drinks alone - included but excluded at the same time.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

These are exacly my thoughts.

--------------

When well over 50% of the population in both Canada and the US identify as Christian, it's only right to have those deocrations up. Once you start making concessions to other religions, it will simply become one big mess that will more than likely lead to no decorations at all.

A few people have said make concessions (Jewish deocrations etc) "within reason", but the fact of the matter is that just isn't the mentality groups of people will have when different types of decorations are put up.

Until there is a substantial number of another minority, there should only be 1 type of deocration up around this time of year.

Not to mention, lots of people consider Christmas to be time to spend with family/friends and not so much of Religion anyway.

So, which is it - a Christian time that should be celebrated the Christian way because the majority of the population are Christian OR a secular time to spend with family and friends that could happen in June (new long weekend ion June, anyone?)?

The already is a significant population of other minorities, and they are clamoring for recognition in various ways - Black History Month, First nation accords, Women's groups threataning lawsuite over the conservative government's cuts.

Once again, majority rule does not cut it.

[Bleeding Red]

I would like to point out that contrary to popular belief Hanukah is NOT a religious holiday. It is, at it's core, a holiday of ethnic liberation, celebrated by family gatherings to commorate the story.

A chanukiah is as much a generic seasonal decoration (for Jews) as a tree with lights (for Christians) is. Jews display them all year round. Why are the lights taken off the trees at New Year's? The winter season isn't over until March.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Bull.

No one is "dismissing" anything. They are celebrating THIER tradition as they always have. It was the Rabbi who was doing (or trying to) the dismissing.

How is requesting an addition to the display a dismissal of the predominante tradition?

This is North America...where the tradition is, and always has been, putting up a decorated tree to celebrate the season. No one is forcing anyone to do the same if they dont want to.

I do not think there were too many trees decorated for the season before 1492 C.E.

What is happening however, is those who dont want to....are trying to change the way most do celebrate, including putting up trees in public places. The trees hurt no one, and please many. Whats wrong with that?

How is adding a chanukiah to a public display changing the way you celebrate the season? Candleabras can be very pleasing to many.
Seasonal decorations that are to me clearly of a Christmas time nature may please you, they make me, and others, feel excluded.

You want to decorate your place with whatever you like (naked Marilyn Manson mannequins sporting dyed leather strips or whatever)...knock yourself out. Thats the beauty of freedom. Just stop infringing on others trying to do the same thing.

Once again, we are not talking about your or my front lawn (though I am sure I would be ordered by the by-law officer to remove my naked Marylin Manson mannequins from my lawn, just as those with unkempt yards are forced to clean them up by the city), we are talking about public spaces.

Just so I am reading this right, you are saying 'hey, this is the way it has been for a long time, we are the majority and we like it, we have no interest in adding your symbol, live with it'?

I am trying to say 'hey alderman/councilor/MPP/MP the lobby has these seasonal decorations up that remind me of thier celebration, could you put up a decoration that reminds me of my celebration? I'm a taxpaying citizen and it would make me feel a bit more comfortable (or less uncomfortable) walking through the lobby."

In the case of the airport the responses were extreme, harsh and uncalled for. The airport dismissed him out of hand then he called for a lawsuit.

Now maybe we are reading a bit into the story - maybe the airport did not dismiss him, maybe the Rabbi just asked to add the chanukiah without declaring that he was offended by the other decorations. We know the Rabbi complained that the Airport would not add a chanukiah and threatened a lawsuit and the airport removed the decorations.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

I would like to point out that contrary to popular belief Hanukah is NOT a religious holiday.

and a tree with red bows on it is not a religious symbol. please, feel free to find this in the bible and prove me wrong.

its a completely non-offesnsive tradition that's observed in this part of the world by people from all over and of many different religions (or none at all). i find it absolutely laughable the lengths that some people are taking this to.

what's next? demanding to have an 8' aluminum pole put up so travellers can air their grevences and compete in feats of strength? lets add a mural of L. Ron Hubbard while we're at it so people can keep in mind their theaton levels... every possible group needs to be represented so they won't feel left out while walking through the airport terminal. i mean... its not like you're free to decorate your home how you wish and practice whatever you want there or anything... and we all know how much time people spend at the airport terminal, especially to admire the decorations, cause its such a lovely place.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

and a tree with red bows on it is not a religious symbol. please, feel free to find this in the bible and prove me wrong.

its a completely non-offesnsive tradition that's observed in this part of the world by people from all over and of many different religions (or none at all). i find it absolutely laughable the lengths that some people are taking this to.

Yes, this has become a long debate with emphasis on the extreme example - mostly my fault for extending it........

However, the offense is not in the tradition itself, it is in the exclusion of one tradition over another.

My tradition has been observed in Canada for hundreds of years by people of different ethnicities from all over the world also. I am third gereration Calgarian (my great grandfather arrived in 1908 from the good ol' US of A. The symbol is non-ofensive and people may get some enjoyment from seeing it. Why can it not be added to the display? Because the majority choose not to recognize it and like things the way they are?

[MagicallyAdept]

I hate people who are offended by something that is meant for other people.

Also strange how if i was offended by someone celebrating any other religion apart from Christianity i would be a racist.

We should ban life incase we upset the dead people...

What is the world coming to. It's f*ccking bollox really.

My religion of Jedi.. we are a happy people, content with making people look elsewhere for the droids.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by MagicallyAdept

I hate people who are offended by something that is meant for other people.

Also strange how if i was offended by someone celebrating any other religion apart from Christianity i would be a racist.

We should ban life incase we upset the dead people...

What is the world coming to. It's f*ccking bollox really.

My religion of Jedi.. we are a happy people, content with making people look elsewhere for the droids.

I hate people who hate people, because people who need people are the luckiest people.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

I hate people who hate people, because people who need people are the luckiest people.

wouldn't that mean you hate yourself... (edited - don't really feel like pushing people's buttons on this one... its not worth it)....