Chrismas trees removed in Sea-Tac airport

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

"Not celebrating Holiday X" is different than "dismissing and disregarding".

Every year it's the same damn argument and every year I wonder how people can get so worked up about a few Christmas decorations.

What about my beliefs? If I was as sensitive as some other people about all this, I'd demand that the whole works be taken down. I don't believe in any of this stuff. Who is looking out for me? Why are my beliefs being dismissed and disregarded? Because they aren't. People can believe and celebrate what they want and what I choose to believe doesn't have to be represented equally. Nobody is dismissing or disregarding me -- they are doing their own thing. Good for them.

But did you stand up for yourself? Did you tell your employer "this is a secular workplace and putting up Christmas decorations or any others implies religous conections and dominance. Public spaces should not be used this way."

You cannot be dismissed or disregarded if the other side is ignorant of your position.

What if you wanted your side represented equally? Should it be denied to you out of hand?

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Yet, I complained in our department, and poof, the next day there was a Chanuikiah. Building management has told me that their decorations are seasonal and any additions are at my own expense. The City never replies.

I could understand a mall in north Calgary (for example) having only Christmas decorations, but Chinook should know about the large population that lives to their south west and have a few different decorations here and there.

I understand that it is population driven and that this is an extreme case that could have been handled better.

So, what if there were no decorations of any sort to begin with?

She was given a reason when she complained. She was told that the decorations are to bring a bit of festivity for the sake of our clients who stroll through our doors. Our clients are the ones who appreciate the tree.

Of course, my operations manager asked her a few questions that she couldn't answer such as:
1) Is the tree a distraction to a point that you are incapable of work?
2) Are your human rights being infringed upon?

No? Well, guess the tree stays up.

And to be honest, I enjoy strolling through the mall looking at the decorations. I am more likely to go to a mall that appears more festive than one that doesn't. It's simple really. I venture to guess there are many who share this similiarity with me.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

The examples are infirngments on the right to a workplace free from fear and discrimination.

I see. A christmas tree brings fear and discrimination to the workplace. Gotcha.

[CaptainCrunch]

I think there's an inherant failure of communication here. While Christmas was adopted as a christmas holiday, the christmas tree is not a religous symbol in any way shape or form. Its a symbol that represents the commercial aspect of the holiday. The rabbi is asking for a religeous symbol to be placed in a non religous context. If there was a nativity scene then he would have an argument.

Its one thing to be sensitive to symbolism, its another thing too be incredibly stupid and not understand the meanings of said symbolism.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

The offence is in dismissing and disregarding other peoples beliefs and traditions.

The issue is one of respect not equality.

Unfortunately, even in a pluralist democracy, not all minorities can be represented all the time.

Jews only make up 1% of the U.S. population (same as Muslims as a matter of fact). It's actually amazing that both groups get as much cultural attention as they do, considering their relatively small numbers.

There is a tree in Ben Gurion Airport - helps promote the annual pilgramage to Bethlehem.

For comparison, Christians make up 2.1% of Israel's population (Muslims 15.9%). The Christmas tree is probably more appropriate in Ben G. airport than Jewish decorations at Sea Tac.

(All stats from www.nationmaster.com)

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think there's an inherant failure of communication here. While Christmas was adopted as a christmas holiday, the christmas tree is not a religous symbol in any way shape or form. Its a symbol that represents the commercial aspect of the holiday. The rabbi is asking for a religeous symbol to be placed in a non religous context. If there was a nativity scene then he would have an argument.

Its one thing to be sensitive to symbolism, its another thing too be incredibly stupid and not understand the meanings of said symbolism.

Exactly Captain. I'm sure a lot of people didn't realize that there are quite a few Christians who regard the Christmas tree as a pagan symbol and will have nothing to do with it.

Honestly, it's just a tree. Same with poinsettias...and yes, I've seen people complain about poinsettias.

Then again, it's a free country.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

How does this even compare to not allowing women to vote? They are on two different scales.

How are religious minority rights different from women's rights?

They compare here in the sense that you argued that long standing traditions should be held because they have been around and the majority accepted them. New people should be happy to be here.

I'm not saying the other beliefs or traditions don't count. They can celebrate their beliefs and traditions how they want, but they shouldn't complain about Christmas celebrations. This is a matter of forcing those other beleifs upon us. Like I originally said if we were to go to one of these other countries we wouldn't be able to force our beliefs or traditions there.

I think that Christmas/The Season is being forced on us - heck, the mall music started in October!

Like I said, the airport scenario is extreme.

With out knowing specific countries I cannot suficiently answer your last point. Surely you could not force the issue in a totalitarian regime or a communist country. In a western country (Eurpoe, Austrailia) the courts may back you up if you push it.

No one is trying to change the fabric of society here. Just a little 'hey we are here too.'

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

But did you stand up for yourself? Did you tell your employer "this is a secular workplace and putting up Christmas decorations or any others implies religous conections and dominance. Public spaces should not be used this way."

Nah, I wouldn't bother "standing up for myself" over an issue I don't care about. If people want to put up Christmas lights, a chanukiah(I thought it was "menorah"?) or anything else, why would I care? A Christmas tree in a mall or an airport is just a decoration, even if it does symbolize something. If people want to get into it, how does that hurt me? I just don't see the "insult".

I certainly don't see this "dominance" stuff. It's not like someone is cramming anything down my throat or saying "you have to believe in Jesus to catch your flight to Houston". It's just a tree in a hallway.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think there's an inherant failure of communication here. While Christmas was adopted as a christmas holiday, the christmas tree is not a religous symbol in any way shape or form. Its a symbol that represents the commercial aspect of the holiday. The rabbi is asking for a religeous symbol to be placed in a non religous context. If there was a nativity scene then he would have an argument.

Its one thing to be sensitive to symbolism, its another thing too be incredibly stupid and not understand the meanings of said symbolism.

Christmas trees are generally decorated with religious symbols, like stars/angels/etc.

[Nicole]

Originally Posted by leonk19

I respectfully disagree. I'm Jewish myself and I feel that this Rabbi, as well as everyone who is trying to be politically correct these days about Christmas is just so stupid. As a Rabbi he should know first hand that if he gets his wish of putting up a Menora, all it will do is fuel all the other people from different religions to ask the airports to do the same. Threatening the airport with litigation is just ridiculous to boot.

And I will tell you that Christmas is not a Christian holiday. For every 1 person that goes to church to celebrate Christmas, there are 20 that go to the mall instead to buy Playstation 3's. I mean, I'm a Jew who celebrates Hannukah, but I probably get more excited over Christmas than I do for any other holiday. And it's not because of Christ, it's because I actually like the decorations and the Christmas trees and the lights. People who get offended by this stuff need to get a grip. They are decorations for God's sake. Like another poster said, I don't think any of you go to your neighbours house and tell them to put up another religious symbol by their lit up Christmas tree.

Even if it is a corporation putting up Christmas trees and lights, I highly doubt they are putting them up to celebrate Christ. Tell me what company Christmas parties have prayers going on. All I see is co-workers showing up and getting drunk and hitting on each other. For the general public, Christmas was and never will be a religious holiday, and people who get offended this easily should just stay indoors, because if they get offended over some stupid Christmas decorations, I don't want to know what else will send them into an uproar.

I totally agree with this post. I think too many people get uptight and offended over the smallest of things. When my mom was growing up she doesn't remember people who are not Christian, complaining about public places decorated for Christmas. I think some people want to find any little thing to act offended over so that they can get their name in the paper and/or sue the "offender". Suing (for the dumbest reasons) is what people do best in our society nowadays.

The Mayor of Edmonton is Jewish and city hall is still decorated for Christmas and children from various elementary schools go to city hall to perform their Christmas themed songs ... I don't see the mayor of this city getting all offended over it.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

She was given a reason when she complained. She was told that the decorations are to bring a bit of festivity for the sake of our clients who stroll through our doors. Our clients are the ones who appreciate the tree.

Of course, my operations manager asked her a few questions that she couldn't answer such as:
1) Is the tree a distraction to a point that you are incapable of work?
Clearly it is if she is causing that much trouble over it. But I would think that the result would be firing the employee, not changing the decor.

2) Are your human rights being infringed upon?
percieved religious equality - whether she realized it or not.


No? Well, guess the tree stays up.

And to be honest, I enjoy strolling through the mall looking at the decorations. I am more likely to go to a mall that appears more festive than one that doesn't. It's simple really. I venture to guess there are many who share this similiarity with me.

Yes, in the case of the mall, we vote with our wallets. I won't shop in a mall at this time of year that does not have a chanukiah (along with all the seasonal stuff)- which limits me to five malls in my area.

The mall in north Toronto learned that they could get a lot of bad publicity and lose money over this and poof - there is a chanukia.

A problem arises in public areas where commerce holds little sway, like the lobby of my office building.

Jewish centres will reply to your request for 'seasonal decorations' that they are percieved as being 'Chirstmas decorations' by their clientele and are inapropriate for their centre.

(quick, call a lawyer!)

[Calgaryborn]

Christmas trees are not offensive.

Lawsuits are offensive.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Nah, I wouldn't bother "standing up for myself" over an issue I don't care about. If people want to put up Christmas lights, a chanukiah(I thought it was "menorah"?) (A menorah has seven branches, a chanukiah has nine) or anything else, why would I care? A Christmas tree in a mall or an airport is just a decoration, even if it does symbolize something. If people want to get into it, how does that hurt me? I just don't see the "insult".

I also do not see the outright insult in the decoration.
The insult comes with the dismissal of the request for a chanukia alongside the decoration.

Again, the lawsuit thing is extreme

I certainly don't see this "dominance" stuff. It's not like someone is cramming anything down my throat or saying "you have to believe in Jesus to catch your flight to Houston". It's just a tree in a hallway.

Yet now there are arguments about decorations, when to play the music, clercks saying "merry Christmas" vs "happy Holidays"......I don't recall any of this when I was young.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Ahhh....she is working in a predominantly Christian country (80% of the population is Christian)....she needs to get use to it. She don't like it....go work or live in a different country.

Is it actually 80%. That seems to high to me. Do you have a link?

Either way, your arguement doesn't fly. By your arguement, as already pointed out anything the majority wants can be justified no matter how detremental it is to a minority.
Thankfully the charter protects Canadians from views like yours.

As for the actually story, she's being too sensetive IMO. I don't know how a Christmas tree could offend anyone.
I'm glad it wasn't a muslim lady too, since the reaction would likely be 10X worse then a jewish lady.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Nicole

I totally agree with this post. I think too many people get uptight and offended over the smallest of things. When my mom was growing up she doesn't remember people who are not Christian, complaining about public places decorated for Christmas. I think some people want to find any little thing to act offended over so that they can get their name in the paper and/or sue the "offender". Suing (for the dumbest reasons) is what people do best in our society nowadays.

The Mayor of Edmonton is Jewish and city hall is still decorated for Christmas and children from various elementary schools go to city hall to perform their Christmas themed songs ... I don't see the mayor of this city getting all offended over it.

The Calgary Hebrew School Chior performed Hanukah songs in winter festival concerts.

Has anyone asked the Mayor to look into including a chanukiah in City hall displays?

Yes, for most people this is an inconsiquential issue dealing with items that are generally just percieved as there and having little to no impact as we walk on by.

But just because we do not care should it be dismissed as incinsequential.

(again, the lawsuit thing is extreme)

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Yes, in the case of the mall, we vote with our wallets. I won't shop in a mall at this time of year that does not have a chanukiah (along with all the seasonal stuff)- which limits me to five malls in my area.

The mall in north Toronto learned that they could get a lot of bad publicity and lose money over this and poof - there is a chanukia.

A problem arises in public areas where commerce holds little sway, like the lobby of my office building.

Jewish centres will reply to your request for 'seasonal decorations' that they are percieved as being 'Chirstmas decorations' by their clientele and are inapropriate for their centre.

(quick, call a lawyer!)

She's not from any religious background. It's ironic to me that the employees with religious backgrouds could care less. So no, if she was offended to a point that she is incapable of work, it isn't because of her religious standings or discrimination.

Sometimes we have to accept the fact that some people are just nutcases. And she has all the freedom, rights, and privilege to be one.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by leonk19

I respectfully disagree. I'm Jewish myself and I feel that this Rabbi, as well as everyone who is trying to be politically correct these days about Christmas is just so stupid. As a Rabbi he should know first hand that if he gets his wish of putting up a Menora, all it will do is fuel all the other people from different religions to ask the airports to do the same. Threatening the airport with litigation is just ridiculous to boot.

And I will tell you that Christmas is not a Christian holiday. For every 1 person that goes to church to celebrate Christmas, there are 20 that go to the mall instead to buy Playstation 3's. I mean, I'm a Jew who celebrates Hannukah, but I probably get more excited over Christmas than I do for any other holiday.

Does that mean that Hanukah is not a Jewish Holiday because for every 1 Jew who goes to Shul to say the special prayers for Hanukah there are 20 buying Nintedo Wii's?

And it's not because of Christ, it's because I actually like the decorations and the Christmas trees and the lights. People who get offended by this stuff need to get a grip. They are decorations for God's sake. Like another poster said, I don't think any of you go to your neighbours house and tell them to put up another religious symbol by their lit up Christmas tree.

Notice how you recognize and refer to them as "Christmas Trees", not as seasonal decorations - Might have nothing to do with christ, but definately associated with Christians.

Even if it is a corporation putting up Christmas trees and lights, I highly doubt they are putting them up to celebrate Christ. Tell me what company Christmas parties have prayers going on. All I see is co-workers showing up and getting drunk and hitting on each other. For the general public, Christmas was and never will be a religious holiday, and people who get offended this easily should just stay indoors, because if they get offended over some stupid Christmas decorations, I don't want to know what else will send them into an uproar.

That may be your company. Christians in my building have identified the three in our lobby as a Christmas tree because it has gifts under it and a star on top of it. My company insists on saying grace before we eat our 'holiday lunch' (I am then given the opportunity to say a Jewish grace).
Each company is different - though I bet your company's holiday parties are better than mine.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

I also do not see the outright insult in the decoration.
The insult comes with the dismissal of the request for a chanukia alongside the decoration.

I think the argument was that they would have to represent everyone's beliefs and it would have been a real hassle to do so, so they just took it all down. There are nearly 4 million people in Seattle. You can't please them all.

Like it or lump it, there are a a lot of people in Washington that celebrate Christmas in one way or another. An innocuous tree just comes with the territory. Literally. Christmas trees have probably been going up in that airport for 50 years.

[Superflyer]

For the people that are saying that the airport over-reacted by taking down all decorations and not just putting up other religions items, think about this. First they are being threatened with a lawsuit, second they do not want their names in the media about this (hence the taking them down in the middle of the night).
So lets just say that they do get one of the guys that took the trees down to go on google and research all the other religions as one person suggested. So just to clarify, this is a baggage handler not a person that knows the world (just assuming that the baggage handlers do not have a batchlors degree). They find info on google, on lets keep it easy and says Jewish people. They take their findings to the airport manager and says this is what we need.
So the airport manager has to go and build this whatever the BH found, and it has to be "Giant" or they will get sued. So they take it back to the airport and unveil it, and as it turns out it is menorah is missing an arm or has to many. Oops that offends people as it is not right. Or they wound up making a giant swastika cause the guy just did a search on Jewish people and did not bother checking the history of what he found. Oops that is a big no no.

Also remember this is durung the Christmas season at an airport which is always the busiest season of the year for them as well.

So what was easier, rushing through the research and possably messing things up worse or cutting your losses and taking down everything?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Christmas trees are generally decorated with religious symbols, like stars/angels/etc.

I don't see how this is a factor since they are just decorations and the tree that they're placed on isn't considered a holy symbol.

The symbol of the angel on the tree isn't so much as a religous symbol as just a symbol of luck. Stars can be interpreted as the christmas star that the wiseman followed or just a star thats pretty. I think we as people are oversensitised to stuff like this.

Personally I don't get wrapped up in this stuff since I repect every ones right to believe and worship, and thats the fundemental issue in this whole debate.

However it does somewhat **** me off when people attack a holiday thats suppossed to be predicated around the birth of the prince of peace, and good will to all mankind. The fact that some groups can't look beyond a fairly narrow view and are insulted by commerical symbolism is also upsetting.

If I saw the nativity scene in a mall, it might be different, but I've yet to see a christian representation in any mall or office in my travels this year.

When did mankind become so intolerant of other peoples beliefs.