Chrismas trees removed in Sea-Tac airport

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by habernac

Hey, if you want to put up whatever symbol is important to you, go nuts! Nothing wrong with a little diversity. But don't demand it of others. I'm not going to go to my neighbour and demand that he add a Christmas tree to his home because it's what I think fits best with the season.

We are not discussing personal space or private property.
We are talking about public space (though it may be owned by a company or city.etc.)

Decorate your office as you see fit. But when the company choses to decorate the lobby in a certain style respectful of only a high percentage of it's employees, that is different.

The Airport, though owned by a city or management company, is a public space and a complaint that it is only respecting a certain percentage of it's clientele is valid.

The airport could have politley said that they do not consider the decorations as religiously symbolic and they cannot accomodate the Rabbi. That too is a valid response.

Getting lawyers involved and tearing down displays is extreme.

[skins]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

There should be some sort of assimilation that should take place when you move to a new country, after all if we were to move to their country they would expect us to assimilate to their celebrations.

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I don't agree with your "assimilation" assertion. But I also think they shouldn't complain about the tradition and culture already in place. They don't need to celebrate Xmas, but they shouldn't complain about the existing celebrations or cultural celebrations either.

There needs to me a medium here. Some assimilation has to take place for immagrants to integrate and contribute to society (like learning the language, paying taxes, learning the rules of hockey ) and part of that assimilation is an understanding of what traditions or celebrations are currently in place. They have no right to come to our country and try to change or complain about our traditions. They can feel free continue the practices of their culture, but they have no right to say "your Christmas tree offends me".

[Sparks]

I had a lady freak on me for writing "X-mas"... she said "Don't you ever replace the word Christ with an X, it's so disrespectful"...

Here's what you can tell anyone who says that: (from wikipedia)

The word "Christ" and its compounds, including "Christmas", have been abbreviated for at least the past 1,000 years, long before the modern "Xmas" was commonly used. "Christ" was often written as "XP" or "Xt"; there are references in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle as far back as 1021 AD. This X and P arose as the uppercase forms of the Greek letters χ and ρ), used in ancient abbreviations for Χριστος (Greek for "Christ") (see Labarum), and are still widely seen in many Eastern Orthodox icons depicting Jesus Christ.

It has nothing to do with "taking 'Christ' out of Christmas."

[Language]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

But it's not your neighbour, it is a publically funded building, that I assume is spending public money on these decorations.

Try living around a bunch of southern babtists, and tell me that Christmas is not a Christian holiday. Peoples' offices in my building are filled with decorations asking us to celebrate Christ's birth, celebrate He who died for my sins/etc. Throw in our cafeteria workers who always like to sing a prayer to me, or remind me how blessed we should all feel at this time or year, etc.

It can get to be a little much, and I could understand someone wanting people to keep their celebrations to themselves a little more.

I respectfully disagree. I'm Jewish myself and I feel that this Rabbi, as well as everyone who is trying to be politically correct these days about Christmas is just so stupid. As a Rabbi he should know first hand that if he gets his wish of putting up a Menora, all it will do is fuel all the other people from different religions to ask the airports to do the same. Threatening the airport with litigation is just ridiculous to boot.

And I will tell you that Christmas is not a Christian holiday. For every 1 person that goes to church to celebrate Christmas, there are 20 that go to the mall instead to buy Playstation 3's. I mean, I'm a Jew who celebrates Hannukah, but I probably get more excited over Christmas than I do for any other holiday. And it's not because of Christ, it's because I actually like the decorations and the Christmas trees and the lights. People who get offended by this stuff need to get a grip. They are decorations for God's sake. Like another poster said, I don't think any of you go to your neighbours house and tell them to put up another religious symbol by their lit up Christmas tree.

Even if it is a corporation putting up Christmas trees and lights, I highly doubt they are putting them up to celebrate Christ. Tell me what company Christmas parties have prayers going on. All I see is co-workers showing up and getting drunk and hitting on each other. For the general public, Christmas was and never will be a religious holiday, and people who get offended this easily should just stay indoors, because if they get offended over some stupid Christmas decorations, I don't want to know what else will send them into an uproar.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

We are not discussing personal space or private property.
We are talking about public space (though it may be owned by a company or city.etc.)

Decorate your office as you see fit. But when the company choses to decorate the lobby in a certain style respectful of only a high percentage of it's employees, that is different.

The Airport, though owned by a city or management company, is a public space and a complaint that it is only respecting a certain percentage of it's clientele is valid.

The airport could have politley said that they do not consider the decorations as religiously symbolic and they cannot accomodate the Rabbi. That too is a valid response.

Getting lawyers involved and tearing down displays is extreme.

who threatened to have lawyers involved in the first place? The Rabbi did, not the airport.

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by leonk19

I respectfully disagree. I'm Jewish myself and I feel that this Rabbi, as well as everyone who is trying to be politically correct these days about Christmas is just so stupid. As a Rabbi he should know first hand that if he gets his wish of putting up a Menora, all it will do is fuel all the other people from different religions to ask the airports to do the same. Threatening the airport with litigation is just ridiculous to boot.

And I will tell you that Christmas is not a Christian holiday. For every 1 person that goes to church to celebrate Christmas, there are 20 that go to the mall instead to buy Playstation 3's. I mean, I'm a Jew who celebrates Hannukah, but I probably get more excited over Christmas than I do for any other holiday. And it's not because of Christ, it's because I actually like the decorations and the Christmas trees and the lights. People who get offended by this stuff need to get a grip. They are decorations for God's sake. Like another poster said, I don't think any of you go to your neighbours house and tell them to put up another religious symbol by their lit up Christmas tree.

Even if it is a corporation putting up Christmas trees and lights, I highly doubt they are putting them up to celebrate Christ. Tell me what company Christmas parties have prayers going on. All I see is co-workers showing up and getting drunk and hitting on each other. For the general public, Christmas was and never will be a religious holiday, and people who get offended this easily should just stay indoors, because if they get offended over some stupid Christmas decorations, I don't want to know what else will send them into an uproar.

Nice pun! Was hoping for 'christs sake' but i'll take god.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by skins

There needs to me a medium here. Some assimilation has to take place for immagrants to integrate and contribute to society (like learning the language, paying taxes, learning the rules of hockey ) and part of that assimilation is an understanding of what traditions or celebrations are currently in place. They have no right to come to our country and try to change or complain about our traditions. They can feel free continue the practices of their culture, but they have no right to say "your Christmas tree offends me".

I guess I should have been more clear in what I said. This is what I was trying to get at. I don't have a problem with people continuing the practices of their culture, but I had a problem with them complaining about the traditions and practices here.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

I have been in her shoes. I am chinese. Do you honestly think my first belief of choice is Christianity?

I have even lived in a predominantly muslim country as a buddist. I have had to endure loud speakers of koran reading during suppertime, and islamic tv shows. So yes, I have been in her shoes.

However, I learned that to complain and criticize it is a moot cause. It is better to educate people on your belief than to be vocal about what should and shouldn't be displayed. I used to have a Jewish coworker who would invite us to his house to celebrate his holiday. Never has he been critical of the company tree, or the decorations in the mall. He understands that the majority celebrates this holiday, and as a minority, he has learned to educate those that aren't familiar with his beliefs.

I don't see why people can't follow this example.

Yet, I complained in our department, and poof, the next day there was a Chanuikiah. Building management has told me that their decorations are seasonal and any additions are at my own expense. The City never replies.

I could understand a mall in north Calgary (for example) having only Christmas decorations, but Chinook should know about the large population that lives to their south west and have a few different decorations here and there.

I understand that it is population driven and that this is an extreme case that could have been handled better.

So, what if there were no decorations of any sort to begin with?

[FlamesAddiction]

It's really too bad when stuff like this happens. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of Rabbis and of course, Jews, would never be so silly over a Christmas tree. It's too bad, because now there are going to be a bunch of racists saying; "See... see what Jews are like".

It's the same thing when a Muslim or Christian does something extreme. It ends up being used as fuel for people an axe to grind.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

This is my thinking. Why all of a sudden does everything have to be about being polically correct. Christmas has been celebrated for the longest time in Canada and the US and all of a sudden just because people from other religions start complaining we should suppress the decorations, celebrations, etc. That is ridiculous. There should be some sort of assimilation that should take place when you move to a new country, after all if we were to move to their country they would expect us to assimilate to their celebrations.

Women never got to vote in Canada and the US for the longest time, all of a sudden they should be allowed to just because a few of them complained?

No one said to surpress the decorations - the airport chose to remove them rather than put up a chanukiah.

Do those with other beliefs or traditions not count?

I did not move to this country, I was born and raised here. I helped trim my neighbour's tree and they lit the chanukiah at our house - it was bliss!!

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Ah I see. So a Christmas tree has become so offensive to the point that it's offensiveness is equal or greater to off colour jokes about blacks and pin-up calenders. I suddenly understand now.

The offence is in dismissing and disregarding other peoples beliefs and traditions.

The issue is one of respect not equality.

[fanforever1986]

You know, Christmukkuh, the Festivus Miracle would fix all of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrismukkah

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

The offence is in dismissing and disregarding other peoples beliefs and traditions.

The issue is one of respect not equality.

Then your example was a poor choice. Those are examples that infringe on human dignity. By listing those examples, you are implying to me that a Christmas tree does the same thing.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

The issue here isn't that the rabbi made a request. I don't think anyone here has a problem with the Rabbi making a request.

The issue here is that the Rabbi threatened with a lawsuit.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

There is a tree in Ben Gurion Airport - helps promote the annual pilgramage to Bethlehem. Tourism dollars are great.

I think for the most part tolerance does go both ways, but one side, being in the minority clearly has little choice in the matter.

What is wrong with a person asking the management of public space building if in addition to their decked out halls they add a chanukiah or a Kwanza candleabra or reasonalbe size? They are not asking for equal space. The intolerance comes when the other party decides that it is less trouble to do nothing or outright dismiss the request than try to come to a reasonalbe solution or a respectful decline of the request.

The issue is not a lack of representation or equality, it is one of respect.

I respect your seasonal decoration of our public space with your symbols, can we not respect my seasonal sentiments with my sysmbols?

Didn't he threaten a law suit? I think that is a little different than saying "geee....would you people mind putting up one of our decorations in support of our interpretation of the holidays?"

And then you get the Airport Manger who gets scared that he is going to be sued and pulls all the trees. That is almost more sick than the original complaint.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

The offence is in dismissing and disregarding other peoples beliefs and traditions.

The issue is one of respect not equality.

"Not celebrating Holiday X" is different than "dismissing and disregarding".

Every year it's the same damn argument and every year I wonder how people can get so worked up about a few Christmas decorations.

What about my beliefs? If I was as sensitive as some other people about all this, I'd demand that the whole works be taken down. I don't believe in any of this stuff. Who is looking out for me? Why are my beliefs being dismissed and disregarded? Because they aren't. People can believe and celebrate what they want and what I choose to believe doesn't have to be represented equally. Nobody is dismissing or disregarding me -- they are doing their own thing. Good for them.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by habernac

who threatened to have lawyers involved in the first place? The Rabbi did, not the airport.

That doesn't make it any less extreme or unusual or (in my opinion) wrong.

There are better ways to come to an understanding.

A mall in north Toronto had only 'winter seasonal' decorations. A Jewish patron was upset that there were no hanukah symbols. She called her Rabbi (of the same sect as the one in Seattle). He arranged to meet with the manager and owners of the Mall and the Mayor of the city (mutual friends to both parties) and they came to an agreement and poof, a two foot chanukiah in one of the entrance ways.

No lawyers, no heavey media, no riots - just lots of secular commercialism!

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Then your example was a poor choice. Those are examples that infringe on human dignity. By listing those examples, you are implying to me that a Christmas tree does the same thing.

The examples are infirngments on the right to a workplace free from fear and discrimination.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Women never got to vote in Canada and the US for the longest time, all of a sudden they should be allowed to just because a few of them complained?

No one said to surpress the decorations - the airport chose to remove them rather than put up a chanukiah.

Do those with other beliefs or traditions not count?

I did not move to this country, I was born and raised here. I helped trim my neighbour's tree and they lit the chanukiah at our house - it was bliss!!

How does this even compare to not allowing women to vote? They are on two different scales.

I'm not saying the other beliefs or traditions don't count. They can celebrate their beliefs and traditions how they want, but they shouldn't complain about Christmas celebrations. This is a matter of forcing those other beleifs upon us. Like I originally said if we were to go to one of these other countries we wouldn't be able to force our beliefs or traditions there.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Soooo.....if I'm black working in a predominantly white company; or a woman working in a predominatly male company, I should get used to off colour jokes about blacks or pin-up calanders or go work or live in a different country?

I thought Christianity preached tolerance?

Are you serious.....

I am not even going to justify your reply with a response.