City of Victoria to remove statue of John A. Macdonald from the steps of City Hall

[David Struch]

For years, government officials withheld food from aboriginal people until they moved to their appointed reserves, forcing them to trade freedom for rations. Once on reserves, food placed in ration houses was withheld for so long that much of it rotted while the people it was intended to feed fell into a decades-long cycle of malnutrition, suppressed immunity and sickness from tuberculosis and other diseases. Thousands died.

Sir John A. Macdonald, acting as both prime minister and minister of Indian affairs during the darkest days of the famine, even boasted that the indigenous population was kept on the "verge of actual starvation," in an attempt to deflect criticism that he was squandering public funds.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...ticle13316877/

[GGG]

Originally Posted by David Struch

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...ticle13316877/

No one said he wasn’t all that bad, but you understand if Macdonald is the standard No Prime Minister pre WWII does.

[David Struch]

Prime Minister John A. Macdonald's government presided over the largest "legal" mass execution in Canadian history!

http://www.danielnpaul.com/PrimeMini...Macdonald.html

Just prior to the executions, November 20, 1885, MacDonald included the following white supremacist gem in a letter to the commissioner of Indian Affairs: "The executions of the Indians ought to convince the Red Man that the White Man governs."

[David Struch]

10 quotes John A. Macdonald made about First Nations

https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/10-quotes...-first-nations

[spuzzum]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Riel_(sculpture)

We should take this puppy down as well. Heck, remove all statues and burn every book. These artifacts are there to reflect on history - good and bad.

It's like seeing these sanitizers everywhere now. Can't have enough of them to remove all the dirt.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by spuzzum

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Riel_(sculpture)

We should take this puppy down as well. Heck, remove all statues and burn every book. These artifacts are there to reflect on history - good and bad.

It's like seeing these sanitizers everywhere now. Can't have enough of them to remove all the dirt.

I guess it depends on what you think the statues are there for. Are they there to commemorate the people or to celebrate them. I think historically it's been the latter.

I'm not First Nations so I don't know what it feels like to walk past a statue celebrating JAM considering all the harm he caused to countless people in this country. As a person of Russian-Jewish origin the closest comparable I could imagine would be having a statue of Stalin displayed in Moscow or St.Petersburg. I don't think it would bother me that much but it would certainly make me question the motivation behind the statue.

I agree with Pepsi that the likely best solution is to keep the statues up but include a plaque that lists both the good and the bad. I also agree with Psychnet that, generally speaking, statues of politicians are dumb.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by spuzzum

We should take this puppy down as well. Heck, remove all statues and burn every book. These artifacts are there to reflect on history - good and bad.

Statues =/= books, in importance, educational value, historical value, etc.

There are valid reasons to oppose taking down the statue. Some of which have been explored in this thread. Please stop using this ridiculously poor false-equivalency.

John A is not Hitler. Removing a statue is not book burning. Y’all look silly.

[spuzzum]

A plague with a historical figure is definitely an important component of what is being presented. Certainly a good talking point on if the statue is there for historical celebration. I think the problem is - even with heroes - no human being will ever be perfect and some segment will always be offended.

Take a great general - they win war after war and expanded the empire that made the nation what it is today. Prosperity, global importance etc... War is bad. Many people including civilians perish. Decades or centuries later, everyone including those conquered are living happily together. I think it's certainly important to not only celebrate what the general did with a statue dedicated to their memory, but also use it for historical context.

[powderjunkie]

IMO we just need to move away from canonizing individuals and move to commemorating events. There would be a lot more interesting public art out there...and we could have more fun controversies like blue rings and bowfort towers.

[Fuzz]

Well he's gone now. A rather undignified ending...





https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...elps-1.4782065

[station]

Can someone please explain to me why the removal of a statue in Victoria necessitates either the removal of all similar historical monuments, or none at all?

In arguing for a universal moral liberalism you’re creating the following doctrine:

Thou shalt only remove or rename statues, bridges, schools, etc. if all such monuments or dedications are removed or renamed.

To me this is less liberalism than a kind of moral authoritarianism. You’re saying we as a country can only have progress if all forms of progress are universally applied, therefore we should have conservatism.

I’m not even personally arguing for the statue removal as it affects me in no way at all. I’m arguing for the right of Victoria city council to remove the statue within the context of their reconciliation program; an action that from what I can tell, is based not on principle or morality but on simple kindness. Maybe I’m wrong or naïve. But I do believe the residents of Victoria can voice their opinion in the next civic election. If conversative voices win out, they can put the statue back and do whatever they like with the reconciliation program. That is how a liberal democracy operates. In a liberal society local govt, public institutions, and community orgs should be able to base their own policies within the framework of the constitution and laws of the land, not merely on a moral authority.

If anyone is interested here are the five recommendations for municipalities from the TRC:
https://www.victoria.ca/EN/main/city...overnment.html

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by spuzzum

A plague with a historical figure is definitely an important component of what is being presented. Certainly a good talking point on if the statue is there for historical celebration. I think the problem is - even with heroes - no human being will ever be perfect and some segment will always be offended.

Take a great general - they win war after war and expanded the empire that made the nation what it is today. Prosperity, global importance etc... War is bad. Many people including civilians perish. Decades or centuries later, everyone including those conquered are living happily together. I think it's certainly important to not only celebrate what the general did with a statue dedicated to their memory, but also use it for historical context.

This brings me back to a point I have made earlier in this thread, and I think it bears some discussion:

Why are we still venerating individual people in the forms of effigies?

From the Lincoln Memorial to the statues of the Kim dynasty to Wayne Gretzky’s bronze idol outside of the Edmonton Toiletbowl, the subtlety that we apply to distinguishing statues from one another in their purpose is extremely fine, and frankly, a little weird.

As I understand it, the purpose of this particular statue of John A MacDonald is to recognize his time as the first serving Member of Parliament who represented Victoria in the House of Commons. He had lost his seat in his home Ontario riding, and as a result sought re-election in a constituency to which he had never visited. Is this itself something that warrants a statue? Part of MacDonald’s legacy was the inclusion of British Columbia in Confederation, but I question whether a statue is the most appropriate way to honour that achievement. In the light of how indigenous peoples from the region have now expressed their feelings about this monument, I think an open discussion about his legacy in Victoria and the best way to represent it is certainly worth having. A statue seems to me like a poor, very hollow method of commemoration in the first place, and given certain reactions its replacement opens new opportunities for something better, and more appropriate.

[afc wimbledon]

I think all historic statues should be removed as with very few exceptions they are made by hack sculptures who couldn't make a living on their artistic merits and are asthetically ####e

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think all historic statues should be removed as with very few exceptions they are made by hack sculptures who couldn't make a living on their artistic merits and are asthetically ####e

By “historic statues” do you mean effigies of notable historical actors?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

So my questions stand, will it actually have a positive impact in removing it? Was it such an affront to the FN that they couldn't muster up the courage to walk passed a crummy statue?

Or is it a posturing tactic with little impact one way or another?

Jesus Christ, of COURSE it will.

You can disagree with removing the statue on whatever grounds you want, that's your right, but seriously do some of you guys never interact with Indigenous Canadians on any level, ever?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Jesus Christ, of COURSE it will.

You can disagree with removing the statue on whatever grounds you want, that's your right, but seriously do some of you guys never interact with Indigenous Canadians on any level, ever?

lol. That's definitely an appropriate response to his question.

[jayswin]

Sorry, that was a little over emotional. But I do recommend going out of your way in your lifetime at some point to interact with our Indigenous communities in a meaningful way to see life from their side and see what issues matter to them the most.


We do a really great job in this country of speaking for them from a white perspective, but you would benefit greatly from seeing things from their side. What a horrible history that've endured here, capped off by each new generation telling them what matters and what doesn't.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

lol. That's definitely an appropriate response to his question.

Yep, responded emotionally to that one post as a response to my feelings of reading the whole thread. Sorry, monitor.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This brings me back to a point I have made earlier in this thread, and I think it bears some discussion:

Why are we still venerating individual people in the forms of effigies?

From the Lincoln Memorial to the statues of the Kim dynasty to Wayne Gretzky’s bronze idol outside of the Edmonton Toiletbowl, the subtlety that we apply to distinguishing statues from one another in their purpose is extremely fine, and frankly, a little weird.

statues? that's nothing

communists didn't even bury their leaders. Grandpa Kim. Mao, Ho Chi Minh are still frozen!

[David Struch]

Sir John A. Macdonald: 5 Frightening Facts About Our First Prime Minister

1. During the American Civil War (1861 to 1865), Montreal served as refuge to Confederates — southern Americans who wanted to keep slavery and secede from the United States union. The Southern slavers found a friend in John A. Macdonald.

2. John A. Macdonald may have named Canada a "confederation" in deference to the Southern Confederates with whom he sympathized.

3. John A. Macdonald was a sinophobe, according to Timothy J. Stanley's research.

4. John A. Macdonald was way more racist than his contemporaries.

5. John A. Macdonald's policies of forced starvation helped clear First Nations from the prairies in order to build the railway, according to James Daschuk of University of Regina. An excerpt from his book, Clearing the Plains: Disease, Politics of Starvation and the Loss of Aboriginal Life:

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/rachel...b_6450442.html