City of Victoria to remove statue of John A. Macdonald from the steps of City Hall

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

What was the cost in this case? The day wage of a few city labourers to remove it? That's actually a sunk cost...so what was the opportunity cost? An employee at city hall gets their new office chair delivered one day later? I guess it'll be whatever it costs to replace it with something...but pretty much everyone seems to agree that an additional plaque would be necessary with or without removal of the statue.

Further to this, it's not like City Hall here is exactly a hotspot for tourism. I doubt anyone who goes by that statue doesn't know who it is. Well I mean if they can recognize it beyond the garish hunk of copper and bird crap that it is.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Were FN people adverse to going to city hall specifically because of the statue?

This is literally exactly what the issue is about.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by rubecube

This is literally exactly what the issue is about.

So my questions stand, will it actually have a positive impact in removing it? Was it such an affront to the FN that they couldn't muster up the courage to walk passed a crummy statue?

Or is it a posturing tactic with little impact one way or another?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

So my questions stand, will it actually have a positive impact in removing it? Was it such an affront to the FN that they couldn't muster up the courage to walk passed a crummy statue?

Or is it a posturing tactic with little impact one way or another?

Nah, I think it's just called courtesy. A lot of people tend to think it's a good idea to employ it when you're working alongside others. You should give it a try some time.

[FireGilbert]

Things change and the removal of the statue is part of the natural evolution of a city. We do not keep every old building just because they are historic. Many are knocked down and replaced because they are no longer useful or aesthetically pleasing while others with beauty and significant history stand the test of time.

Statues and public art are no different. If this statue was less ugly, located in a corner of Beacon Hill Park, and had some context it was a monument to the founding of Canada no one would care. Instead it is an ugly statue located in a prominent location that offends a portion of the population and should be replaced with something more relevant to our modern society.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Nah, I think it's just called courtesy. A lot of people tend to think it's a good idea to employ it when you're working alongside others. You should give it a try some time.

Courtesy? Where's the courtesy for those who would like to keep/modify it with a plaque? Or does courtesy not get extended to those people? Are they not worthy of your courtesy?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Courtesy? Where's the courtesy for those who would like to keep/modify it with a plaque? Or does courtesy not get extended to those people? Are they not worthy of your courtesy?

Can you explain why they/you want to keep it so badly?

I understand and appreciate why FNs would have a concern. I've yet to hear a great reason for why it should stay...

[DiracSpike]

I'll get roasted for this but whatever.

I think it's somewhat unreasonable that FN people can't simply walk past an inanimate object on their way to City Hall. I get that they would harbour ill will towards him as a man, but they don't have to pay tribute to the statue or anything. To the best of my understanding you don't even have to look at it. It just serves to infantilize them.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Can you explain why they/you want to keep it so badly?

I understand and appreciate why FNs would have a concern. I've yet to hear a great reason for why it should stay...

Because I like history being spread throughout cities. It’s neat when visiting a city and walking around and seeing a monument or a piece of public art and reading the plaque and hopefully learning something.

For example we’re you aware that he was the MP for BC prior to this thread?

Providing an opportunity for the public to learn about significant historical figures without having to go to a museum is beneficial. Perhaps by adding a plaque explaing is role in the residential schools would be better for reconciliation by informing people of his role in that tragedy.

There’s also the bigger question of how to we remember past Historical figures. If it’s not acceptable to have a statue becuase of his role In residential schools isn’t that saying you are not aloud to be publicly proud of John A Macdonald?

I think that’s what it’s sayong when Confederate statues are removed and when statues of Hitler are torn down or when Ukraine is de-Leonized. If leaving the Satue up is offensive to FN people than clearly taking the statue down is making the statement that John A Macdonald is not worthy of veneration

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I'll get roasted for this but whatever.

I think it's somewhat unreasonable that FN people can't simply walk past an inanimate object on their way to City Hall. I get that they would harbour ill will towards him as a man, but they don't have to pay tribute to the statue or anything. To the best of my understanding you don't even have to look at it. It just serves to infantilize them.

No one is saying they are unable to, it's simply unpleasant and contrary to building a better relationship.

Do you think the law restricting abortion protests to a certain distance from clinics is similarly unreasonable? Are we infantilizing those women?


Let me go right ahead and de-rail this train with everyone's favourite smart-ass argument ("not everything Hitler did was bad"). Would it be okay for a German community to raise a statue of Hitler for his work to bring Germany out of post WWI depression, as long as they included a plaque outlining his faults? What if the statue is outside a community centre frequented by Jews?

Most people on this board would see a tremendous difference here, but if you're indigenous, the distinction isn't going to be nearly as apparent.


For the record, yes, I literally just compared JAM to Hitler, and no, that does not mean I think he was as bad in the grand scorecard of life. I'm not even saying JAM scores below zero. I just think it's more important to be respectful of fellow humans than to perpetuate flawed historical narratives, even if we start adding *'s to paint a more complete picture and make it less flawed.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

No one is saying they are unable to, it's simply unpleasant and contrary to building a better relationship.

Do you think the law restricting abortion protests to a certain distance from clinics is similarly unreasonable? Are we infantilizing those women?


Let me go right ahead and de-rail this train with everyone's favourite smart-ass argument ("not everything Hitler did was bad"). Would it be okay for a German community to raise a statue of Hitler for his work to bring Germany out of post WWI depression, as long as they included a plaque outlining his faults? What if the statue is outside a community centre frequented by Jews?

Most people on this board would see a tremendous difference here, but if you're indigenous, the distinction isn't going to be nearly as apparent.


For the record, yes, I literally just compared JAM to Hitler, and no, that does not mean I think he was as bad in the grand scorecard of life. I'm not even saying JAM scores below zero. I just think it's more important to be respectful of fellow humans than to perpetuate flawed historical narratives, even if we start adding *'s to paint a more complete picture and make it less flawed.

Did he kill 6 million FN? Oh no? Maybe find a better arguement, this isn't high school anymore where we compare something we are against to Hitler.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Can you explain why they/you want to keep it so badly?

I understand and appreciate why FNs would have a concern. I've yet to hear a great reason for why it should stay...

Because its unnecessary and defamatory to our history as Canadians. We aren't perfect now and we weren't perfect then, but if we as a people or a subset of it are incapable of walking by a statue then that is a failure of that person and not the rest of society and the onus shouldn't be on us to cater to anothers weakness.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GGG

Because I like history being spread throughout cities. It’s neat when visiting a city and walking around and seeing a monument or a piece of public art and reading the plaque and hopefully learning something.

I like history, too, and I absolutely think it has it's place. If we'd made some more progress in our history with FN in Canada over the past 140 years, then maybe this wouldn't be necessary.

As has been said, it's a matter of courtesy. I could legally blare music that I like in my house from 9am-10pm at 65 dBA, even when I'm not home. The same Mozart song, over and over and over and over. Because I think it's friggin' great. And most people agree. And those that haven't heard it, should hear it. But, if my neighbour asked me politely to adjust that behaviour...of course I'll keep playing it because celebrating Mozart is more important than being a courteous neighbour, or for that matter, a good person.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Because its unnecessary and defamatory to our history as Canadians. We aren't perfect now and we weren't perfect then, but if we as a people or a subset of it are incapable of walking by a statue then that is a failure of that person and not the rest of society and the onus shouldn't be on us to cater to anothers weakness.

No one is saying they are unable to, it's simply unpleasant and contrary to building a better relationship.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Did he kill 6 million FN? Oh no? Maybe find a better arguement, this isn't high school anymore where we compare something we are against to Hitler.

If I killed half the people in this world that loved you, would you still think "at least powderjunkie isn't as bad as Hitler...he only killed six people"?

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

No one is saying they are unable to, it's simply unpleasant and contrary to building a better relationship.

If they are able to, what's the tangible benefit? There isn't one. This is so painfully stupid that someone would ask that. "We can be better friends if you remove the statue of the bad guy". Sounds like pandering to the squeaky wheel.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

If I killed half the people in this world that loved you, would you still think "at least powderjunkie isn't as bad as Hitler...he only killed six people"?

I dont really know what your point is, but comparing people you dont like to Hitler is stupid.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I like history, too, and I absolutely think it has it's place. If we'd made some more progress in our history with FN in Canada over the past 140 years, then maybe this wouldn't be necessary.

As has been said, it's a matter of courtesy. I could legally blare music that I like in my house from 9am-10pm at 65 dBA, even when I'm not home. The same Mozart song, over and over and over and over. Because I think it's friggin' great. And most people agree. And those that haven't heard it, should hear it. But, if my neighbour asked me politely to adjust that behaviour...of course I'll keep playing it because celebrating Mozart is more important than being a courteous neighbour, or for that matter, a good person.

You have the worst analogies. The past happened with or without the statue. They are walking to a commission to discuss it. I think you ignored the better part of my argument. The reason the statue is problematic is that White Canada is proud of MacDonald acts to build Canada (and a good portion unaware of his role in residential schools). That’s what this discussion is really about, it’s not about the statue.

Going to your Hitler argument the reason you don’t put a Hitler statue up is because it is not acceptable to be proud of Hitler regardless of his role in the economic recovery of Germany. The evil he did outweighs any good.

By taking down the statue the same statement is being made. It is not acceptable to celebrate Macdonald because of his actions on residential schools. Which comes back to the question of How do you judge historical figures which no one who is anti statue seems to want to answer.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GGG

By taking down the statue the same statement is being made. It is not acceptable to celebrate Macdonald because of his actions on residential schools. Which comes back to the question of How do you judge historical figures which no one who is anti statue seems to want to answer.

I think it’s been answered a hundred times. You remember them based on the entirety of their legacy. How you judge them is up to you personally, that’s not up to history to decide.

I’m neither pro or anti statue, makes more sense to me to just add a plaque that contextualises it along with the statue, but it’s not my call.

The conversation is just insane though. The side who want it down keeps talking Hitler statues, the side who wants it up keeps talking about erasing history and redacting actually history books. Not sure how there’s any middle ground to be found at this point.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I think it’s been answered a hundred times. You remember them based on the entirety of their legacy. How you judge them is up to you personally, that’s not up to history to decide.

I’m neither pro or anti statue, makes more sense to me to just add a plaque that contextualises it along with the statue, but it’s not my call.

The conversation is just insane though. The side who want it down keeps talking Hitler statues, the side who wants it up keeps talking about erasing history and redacting actually history books. Not sure how there’s any middle ground to be found at this point.

I agree with you. I’m pro plaque for most statues. I just want the anti statue folks to put a bit of thought into what they actually are saying by removing it and how does that get applied university. I actually appreciate Psychnets position of no statues of anyone pre-War. At least it’s consistent.