the ongoing anti- racism, anti- oppression thread

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I don't think I've ever seen anyone characterize the freakin' holocaust as an instance of anti-white racism before. That's hilarious. I have this image in my head of some dude sitting across a table from those polo-wearing pricks in Charlottesville explaining to them how they've missed the boat with all the "Jews will not replace us" chanting because those Jews are actually white people.

Those people are clearly idiots. Again Jews weren't the only race/ethnicity targeted by the Nazis.

Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity

So when the Nazi's determined that ethnic Poles (my grandparents! and white!) where not part of their "master race" i.e. they were inferior and proceeded to exterminate them based solely based on the ethnicity .. that is textbook and given they were the occupiers at the time it even fits under the SJW updated definition of racism. Nazi's were obsessed with racial superiority. So tell me where I am wrong?

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

you would probably benefit about reading some stuff about the holocaust.


...literally anything, really

EDIT: or racism, based on your position I actually have no idea which subject you have a fundamental misunderstanding of, so you could just cover both bases.

I don't have a misunderstanding of either. I suspect you are just not looking at the bigger picture of what happened. But if you care to explain why you think i am wrong please do.

Crimes against the Polish nation committed by Nazi Germany and collaborationist forces during the invasion of Poland,[1] along with auxiliary battalions during the subsequent occupation of Poland in World War II,[2], consisted of the systematic extermination of Jewish Poles and the murder of millions of (non-Jewish) ethnic Poles. The Germans justified these genocides on the basis of Nazi racial theory, which depicted Jews as a constant threat and regarded Poles and other Slavs as racially inferior "Untermenschen."

This stuff is well documented.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

White Calgarians must register millions of hours of volunteer work in this area. Yet here we are having a white privilege discussion.

Yeah, one totally cancels the other out.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by GGG

Sure if you want to define racism that way (I think you have applied the term incorrectly and there is irony that you need to point to a white majority opressing a white minority to identify the harm of racism against whites.) I will rephrase my claim

Today, in North America, the consequence of racism against white people is near zero.

I define it based on wikipedia

Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity

it not just about skin color. And once again unless you think white supremacists are a good thing or white nationalists ect.. Who all come to their view point a variety of ways including a perception of racism against whites happens then I guess you are right. But I don't think those people are cool so I will continue to to disagree with you that it is harmless because it is not. Racism is not good no matter how it manifests. Can't believe that needs to be said.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

I don't have a misunderstanding of either. I suspect you are just not looking at the bigger picture of what happened. But if you care to explain why you think i am wrong please do.



This stuff is well documented.

Because that’s not an example of racism based on someone being Caucasian. Which means, again, if you think the holocaust was an example of anti-white racism, you’re wrong.

I can’t tell if you’re outright wrong, stretching the idea to make a point, or are trying to suggest that racism effecting a “white person” is the same as being a victim of racism “because you’re white,” but whatever point you’re trying to make, it doesn’t make any sense.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Because that’s not an example of racism based on someone being Caucasian. Which means, again, if you think the holocaust was an example of anti-white racism, you’re wrong.

I can’t tell if you’re outright wrong, stretching the idea to make a point, or are trying to suggest that racism effecting a “white person” is the same as being a victim of racism “because you’re white,” but whatever point you’re trying to make, it doesn’t make any sense.

The Nazi's thought that some white ethnicities were inferior so they killed them. Thinking your ethnicity is superior to others is racism. Pretty clear.

Crimes against the Polish nation committed by Nazi Germany and collaborationist forces during the invasion of Poland,[1] along with auxiliary battalions during the subsequent occupation of Poland in World War II,[2], consisted of the systematic extermination of Jewish Poles and the murder of millions of (non-Jewish) ethnic Poles. The Germans justified these genocides on the basis of Nazi racial theory, which depicted Jews as a constant threat and regarded Poles and other Slavs as racially inferior "Untermenschen."

I will change my stance that the Holocaust was an example of white racism to Nazi Germany was (amongst many other things as well). It seems debatable to some that the holocaust refers to more than just the extermination of the Jews, since the Nazi tried to exterminated a wide range of people for a wide range of reasons

[White Out 403]

So what is the end game exactly of the white privilege crowd? I am willing to concede that being a white person is easier than not in the western world due to lingering racism that was much much worse before. But now what? What exactly does harping on privilege do besides maintain a racial divide? Shouldn't the end game be for people to stop acting with colour in mind, both good and bad?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

The Nazi's thought that some white ethnicities were inferior so they killed them. Thinking your ethnicity is superior to others is racism. Pretty clear.



I will change my stance that the Holocaust was an example of white racism to Nazi Germany was (amongst many other things as well). It seems debatable to some that the holocaust refers to more than just the extermination of the Jews, since the Nazi tried to exterminated a wide range of people for a wide range of reasons

Sure, again, that’s not an example of racism against someone for being white, similar to how the Rwanda Genocide is not an example of racism against someone for being black.

The Nazi’s also wanted to exterminate people with disabilities. Just because some of those people were white, does not mean it was an example of racism against someone for being white. It doesn’t make sense.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Sure, again, that’s not an example of racism against someone for being white, similar to how the Rwanda Genocide is not an example of racism against someone for being black.

The Nazi’s also wanted to exterminate people with disabilities. Just because some of those people were white, does not mean it was an example of racism against someone for being white. It doesn’t make sense.

Sure i get what your saying. Still an example of racism, no?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Sure i get what your saying. Still an example of racism, no?

Sure, but it’s not “white racism,” as you were trying to suggest, like GGG was talking about:

QUOTE=MelBridgeman;6758720]Yes millions dead (not just jews) because of not being part of the "master race" In this case it was and example of racism including white racism with dire consequences[/QUOTE]

It’s not white racism. No part of Nazi Germany was.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Sure, but it’s not “white racism,” as you were trying to suggest, like GGG was talking about:

QUOTE=MelBridgeman;6758720]Yes millions dead (not just jews) because of not being part of the "master race" In this case it was and example of racism including white racism with dire consequences

It’s not white racism. No part of Nazi Germany was.[/QUOTE]

Ya i get that and we are just dealing with semantics here. Nazi's held opinions of superiority over a lot of different types of people including certain white ethnic groups. Racism can be more than just superiority over people of other skin colors it also includes ethnicities

The main is that racism is not good in any form. Can't believe i have to state that.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

When you say disproportionately, what do you mean by that? I would say that because you use the term disproportionately that you are expressing a noticed exception to the standard you yourself consider "Canadian," and when I say that I mean "white." You out yourself and your own biases there Cliff.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? A core principal of identarian ideology is that A) the racial and gender makeup of our institutions and workplaces should reflect those of society as a whole, and B) where they don't, it's because white males are jealously defending their privilege. That's why there's enormous pressure to change the hiring policies of Google, for example.

And given the above, I'm asking why the white colonial patriarchy has allowed Asians into high-paying industries in greater numbers than their representation in the population as a whole. If the masters of universe are so opposed to people of colour climbing the ladder of success, why are Asians so prevalent in the best universities and in the tech sector?

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

It's like the standard has been placed too high, the more we do the more it's not enough.

The standard is to high?!?

People are still getting accosted on the street simply because of their skin color or religion!

Originally Posted by GirlySports

White Calgarians must register millions of hours of volunteer work in this area.

What are you trying to say here? Immigrants should be grateful to white Calgarians for volunteering? Or is it that POC and immigrants don't volunteer?

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Nobody calls Japan racist. Why don't we hold their feet to the fire.

I don't live in Japan. I'm much more interested in how my country deals with these issues.

Originally Posted by GirlySports

There either is an immigration policy or there isn't.

LOL. Okay Trump. "Open borders, rabble, rabble"

Who doesn't have an immigration policy?



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[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Something we can finally agree on!

Hopefully you agree that N. American society is not living up to these ideals.

No society ever fully lives up to its ideals. That would be utopia. And those impatient to bring about utopia leave rivers of blood in their wake.

But progress matters, and context matters. In every meaningful, measurable way, women and visible minorities have made enormous progress in the last 50 years. And I don't believe, looking at the empirical evidence, that systemic oppression is the only or even the major cause of the remaining disparities. By acting as though it is the only cause, and making it taboo to even talk about others, identarian dogma has actually made efforts to genuinely address social ills more difficult.

Originally Posted by longsuffering

And who is primarily NOT living up to these ideals? Unfortunately race still matters when dealing with the police and with other citizens - in stores, on the streets, in parks, etc. Witness hated directed at Muslims and blacks by people they encounter. It's in the news literally every single day.

And it will continue to be in the news every day. Just as murder will continue to be in the news every day. When your media catchment area is North America, even 0.1 per cent of people being ######nozzles is enough to fill your newsfeed with thousands of people being ######nozzles every day. If bigotry declined by 90 per cent, I doubt we'd see any reduction of it in the news. The business model or our social media is built on conflict and outrage.

Originally Posted by longsuffering

You keep suggesting liberals are somehow responsible for exasperating these problems, yet it's not liberals you see making these attacks.

The people who make those attacks are execrable human beings. You can take it as read that I denounce them utterly. You don't see me calling them out on this forum because I don't see people on this forum defending them.

Originally Posted by longsuffering

But the attitudes of some, primarily white conservatives, who we see embarrassing themselves on our televisions everyday, is a far more serious problem with more negative impact on our society.

Yep. But I have zero influence on those people. They live in a different world than I do. And their idiocy is unfailingly denounced in the world I do live in. I do sometimes come across forums where swivel-eyed nativists voice their hysterical fears about immigration, and when I do I don't hesitate to wade in and try to disabuse them of their fear and bigotry. It doubt it works, but I do try.

The idiots of the left, while not malignant like their counterparts on the right, have a malign influence on politics and civil society. By attacking liberal values and norms, by turning their back on the tolerance for diversity that enabled them to secure their own rights, by succumbing to the same appetites for simplistic narratives and tribal enmity as their counterparts on the right, they're alienating vast numbers of people who would otherwise be political allies, while energizing their enemies. As Stephen Fry commented in the Munk debate, the pious and sanctimonious finger-wagging of the left is meat and drink to conservatives. It fuels them. Every time the Democrats talked identity politics during the last election, Steve Bannon did a fist pump.

And the left are in my world. My culture. I like to think I can influence it, even modestly. The day I stop criticizing the left, you'll know that's the day I've finally abandoned it.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Are you being deliberately obtuse? A core principal of identarian ideology is that A) the racial and gender makeup of our institutions and workplaces should reflect those of society as a whole, and B) where they don't, it's because white males are jealously defending their privilege.

Obtuse? You're whining about Asians having an edge in your business, and then bring up identarian politics as a defense? Wow.

That's why there are angry calls to change the hiring policies of Google, for example.

Angry calls? Still clinging to that Damore memo that alt-right conservatives made such a big brouhaha over?

And given the above, I'm asking why the white colonial patriarchy has allowed Asians into high-paying industries in greater numbers than their representation in the population as a whole. If the masters of universe are so opposed to people of colour climbing the ladder of success, why are Asians so prevalent in the best universities and in the tech sector?

Might be market demands. Might be lazy white people not working hard enough. Might be Asians are just better at those tech jobs than the people available in the marketplace. I know there is a shortage of people in Canada to meet the demand for IT jobs, so that might just have something to do with it. Might also be the changing demographics of the available workforce or those who have interest in those educational programs.

Your anecdotal evidence is nothing like my experiences, but the American marketplace is substantially different from the Canadian one, and I haven't dealt with Canadian companies for almost 25 years. The American marketplace, and universities, is nothing like you suggest. The IT sector down here is still very white male oriented (78% white, 9.7% Asian), as are the classes in college/university. Demographics of regions likely come into play greatly, but the numbers of white males is still the dominant demographic, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics and Educause data. I will also say that from what I've found, your anecdotal evidence is not consistent with the findings of bodies like ITAC or ICTC in Canada. The data is from 2014, so things may have changed slightly since that data was collected. While your comments may be accurate to your place of work, it is not consistent with the published industry statistics.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

So what is the end game exactly of the white privilege crowd? I am willing to concede that being a white person is easier than not in the western world due to lingering racism that was much much worse before. But now what? What exactly does harping on privilege do besides maintain a racial divide? Shouldn't the end game be for people to stop acting with colour in mind, both good and bad?

I think the goal is to recognize systemic factors that would impair the ability to have equal opportunity. So as a white person if you here someone talk about racial profiling by the police your response isn’t that didn’t happen to so it doesn’t happen or that’s because your group commits more crime. It’s that’s terrible how can we change the police force to prevent that from happening.

Having people in power recognoze that their experience is not the universal experience of people is important when crafting laws.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by GGG

The consequence of racism against white people is near zero.

The consequence of accepting racism against white people is that it seems to legitimize racism. Moving from "racism is unacceptable" to "racism can be acceptable" has some pretty nasty consequences.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by SebC

The consequence of accepting racism against white people is that it seems to legitimize racism. Moving from "racism is unacceptable" to "racism can be acceptable" has some pretty nasty consequences.

Did you read the first part of the post where I say it’s not acceptable. It’s just not worth spending time and energy on preventing it until it’s affect is measurable.

[SebC]

That sounds a lot like accepting it to me. Perceived acceptance has similar impacts.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

Did you read the first part of the post where I say it’s not acceptable. It’s just not worth spending time and energy on preventing it until it’s affect is measurable.

The erosion of universalism - the ideal embedded in our systems that people should be regarded as individuals and treated the same regardless of their identity - is already having a malign effect on politics. Younger voters in the U.S., for instance, are becoming increasingly polarized on gender lines. And it doesn't matter whether the source is gamer gate trolls or the zealots who denounce gaming culture as misogynist, the effects are the same: every instance of maligning entire groups only throws fire on the problem, regardless of who is being targeted.

Why is it so hard to promote the idea of not maligning anyone based on their group identity?