[Rumour] Lebrun: CGY & CAR talked about Lindholm trade that could involve Hamilton and Hanifin

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Toonage

I honestly believe that management just doesn't like the competitive drive they see from him off the ice and that probably limits what they think he can ultimately achieve on the ice. They want players that hate to lose, and are fiercely competitive. My guess (again this all just guesswork) is that Hamilton just doesn't exhibit that same drive to win that they want.

Is that a bad way to look at it? Absolutely. He doesn't hamper the team, is well liked (by all accounts) and puts up points. But he probably doesn't show his emotions, and if you couple that with an apparent unwillingness to speak with media or even his bosses (if he did in fact opt out of the year end interview) then they're souring on Dougie the person and not so much Dougie the player. Which is equally hard to believe.

Just a weird situation that might be developing.

Yeah I think you nailed it here. They may have certain expectations that Dougie isn’t meeting. Because you’re absolutely right, he isn’t hampering the team. Moving him creates a huge hole.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The difference being that, if Hamilton moves, that would be both the Flames and the Bruins moving on from him (two franchises that aren’t a tire fire).

You’re comparing that to the Oilers, of all teams, moving Hall and him immediately finding success and a home on his second team.

Swing and a miss.

Also a miss on somehow thinking that was me advocating for a Hamilton trade. One of the last players I’d trade away.

[The Boy Wonder]

I think the media, for a variety of reasons, has really hated on Dougie and I think that has really crept into the on-air braodcasts, and how the talking heads talk about him in this market. Lou really doesn't like him, and most fo teh other Fan960 guys don't, the one who does like him is Rhett Warrener and I would say his opinion matters more than Eric Francis or Loubardias.

Basically I think the constant discussion that dougie isn't a team player is largely overblown by the media who want to make it a thing, because they need something to talk about and because they need a scapegoat.

Was dougie's effort sometimes questionable in his own end? absolutely.
Were his point totals still excellent for a Dman despite playing in a largely stifling system under GG? Probably
Is he still young and the best chance the flames have had in a long time to have a norris finalist Dman year in year out for the next 7 years? Yes

I don't think you trade him just because there are no other tradeable (getting "fair" or expected value) assets on this roster after the dumpster fire last season and to just make a move to make a move.

Unless you are getting multiple 1sts, a middle 6 winger, and a top 4 dman I don't see why you would even consider moving him.

[Stanley]

Honestly how do you turn down year end interviews?!
One should get fired on the spot for that, geez.
If that's true what a ######bag move.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Is this Hamilton stuff like the stuff that plagued Joe Thornton early on?

It turned out if wasn't true, but Boston still won a cup after the trade.

I still like this trade idea with the Canes. I think Flames would get quality and quantity. We probably have to add something.

Sure, Boston won a cup after the trade. That's like saying they won a cup after trading Bill Ranford to Edmonton. They traded Thornton mid-season of 2005/06 and won the cup in 2011. Only Patrice Bergeron and Tim Thomas were on the team when Thornton was traded and when they won the Cup. The players Thornton was traded for were not on the Cup winning team in Boston. Of those players they received for Thornton, they were all traded away and only had Andrew Ference to show for on the Cup team. So trading Hamilton isn't going to guarantee the Flames a cup in a few years. It doesn't guarantee we get better.

I like the idea of trading Hamilton for Hanifin and Lindholm because of the players that Hanifin and Lindholm could be. Lindholm is already showing that he can't be what they hoped he could on his draft day. Hanifin is still young and has time, but if he turns out to be as good as Hamilton, we're effectively turning back the clock on Hamilton by 3 years. The idea is great, but there is too much hope for what the players could become and less guarantee that they'll make the team better upon arrival.

[Saqe]

I'd say Hall would've never become the player he is right now if he still was in Edmonton.



But with Hamilton, I don't really understand the big hole he would supposedly create. If you can get back a 60-70 point winger, the net change in offense is positive.



Yes, the amount of offense you'll get from defense will go down but what does it matter where the offense come from?

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by Royle9

So we don't trade him for garbage?
I dont think anyone has come out and said they want to Trade Dougie for anything less than a win.

The only trade scenario mentioned to date that people seem to be upset about is the one in this thread and personally I feel this trade wouldn't be too bad as it addresses a pretty big need.

Hannifin is a younger Dougie basically, playing on a team that was worse out of the gates (never really in the playoff hunt) and playing 2nd pairing minutes for most of the season.

Noah - 18:53 avg TOI - 4th on D time
Doug - 21:32 avg TOI - 3rd on D time

Lindholm would be tied for 4th in points on the Flames with a chance to play on a line with Sean and Johnny who helped Ferland to his first 20g season since junior. I could see Lindholm flourishing on a line with the two of them, plus gives us a RHS on the powerplay no named Brouwer which we desperately need.

So I'd take that deal myself but I'm not Brad

I agree, and if the deal were Hamilton for Hannifin & Lindholm I would be OK with that too.

Just pointing out that there are reasons why people would get upset.

I remember when Phaneuf was traded everyone was waiting for a Kadri or something similar coming back, and....nothing - just pure garbage.

In this case my worry is it would be Hamilton + for those 2 which IMO would put the Flames on the losing end of it again.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

I think the media, for a variety of reasons, has really hated on Dougie and I think that has really crept into the on-air braodcasts, and how the talking heads talk about him in this market. Lou really doesn't like him, and most fo teh other Fan960 guys don't, the one who does like him is Rhett Warrener and I would say his opinion matters more than Eric Francis or Loubardias.

Basically I think the constant discussion that dougie isn't a team player is largely overblown by the media who want to make it a thing, because they need something to talk about and because they need a scapegoat.

Was dougie's effort sometimes questionable in his own end? absolutely.
Were his point totals still excellent for a Dman despite playing in a largely stifling system under GG? Probably
Is he still young and the best chance the flames have had in a long time to have a norris finalist Dman year in year out for the next 7 years? Yes

I don't think you trade him just because there are no other tradeable (getting "fair" or expected value) assets on this roster after the dumpster fire last season and to just make a move to make a move.

Unless you are getting multiple 1sts, a middle 6 winger, and a top 4 dman I don't see why you would even consider moving him.

Remember, the media also was trying to say that Monahan doesn't have the burning desire to help his team win just weeks before it was announced he had to undergo 4 surgeries and was playing through injuries so he could help the team win.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The difference being that, if Hamilton moves, that would be both the Flames and the Bruins moving on from him (two franchises that aren’t a tire fire).

You’re comparing that to the Oilers, of all teams, moving Hall and him immediately finding success and a home on his second team.

Swing and a miss.

I'm simply trying to point out that people justifying trading Hamilton on the basis of him having a bad attitude is the typical response from teams and fans who have lost a trade.

And let's not act like the Bruins weren't a tire fire at the 2015 draft.

But yeah, swing and a miss as you usually do.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I’m coming around on the idea that something about Hall doesn’t pass the smell test.

He’s an amazing player, and there is no on ice reason to move him from the team. If he does get moved I’m going to take that as confirmation there is something under the surface on a personal/teammate level.

All this is a fair argument...but it doesn't matter as long as you get full value back.

As long as Treliving doesn't go full Chiarelli and trade a MVP candidate one for one for a 3/4 defensive d-man we are probably okay.

Hanifin and Hamilton as the main pieces pretty much takes the Flames back to 3 years ago when they traded for Hamilton to start with.

21/22 year old, RFA, with 3 seasons under their belt.

Hanifin (18-20 years old): GP: 239 G: 18 A:65 P:83

Hamilton (19-21 years old): GP:172 G:22 A:61 P:83

Hamilton more prolific at that point but was also a year older when he started his career. If you compare Hanfin in his 20 year old season (most recent) to Hamilton in his 20 year old season it's pretty similar:

Hanifin: GP: 79 G: 10 A: 22 P: 32 TOI: 18:52 CorsiRel: 3.63
Hamilton: GP: 64 (79) G:7 (9) A:18 (22) P: 25 (31) TOI: 19:06 CorsiRel: 2.11

Pretty much identical offensive stats in their 20 year old seasons - and both are possession drivers.

So the Flames could get 4 years younger, reset the clock to when they first traded for Hamilton, and potentially add a top 6 RW who is also only 23 and has 4 40pt seasons already in the process.

That could be a very shrewd move TBH.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

All this is a fair argument...but it doesn't matter as long as you get full value back.

As long as Treliving doesn't go full Chiarelli and trade a MVP candidate one for one for a 3/4 defensive d-man we are probably okay.

Hanifin and Hamilton as the main pieces pretty much takes the Flames back to 3 years ago when they traded for Hamilton to start with.

21/22 year old, RFA, with 3 seasons under their belt.

Hanifin (18-20 years old): GP: 239 G: 18 A:65 P:83

Hamilton (19-21 years old): GP:172 G:22 A:61 P:83

Hamilton more prolific at that point but was also a year older. If you compare Hanfin in his 20 year old season (most recent) to Hamilton in his 20 year old season it's pretty similar:

Hanifin: GP: 79 G: 10 A: 22 P: 32 TOI: 18:52 CorsiRel: 3.63
Hamilton: GP: 64 (79) G:7 (9) A:18 (22) P: 25 (31) TOI: 19:06 CorsiRel: 2.11

Pretty much identical offensive stats in their 20 year old seasons - and both are possession drivers.

So the Flames could get 4 years younger, reset the clock to when they first traded for Hamilton, and potentially add a top 6 RW who is also only 23 and has 4 40pt seasons already in the process.

That could be a very shrewd move TBH.

Hanifin has also faced much much easier quality of competition and zone starts. He has actually seen his offensive zone starts increase since his rookie season.

[TheScorpion]

Imagine if the Flames traded Hamilton to Toronto with Wotherspoon and Hathaway for a re-signed Bozak, Leo Komarov, Connor Carrick, and Matt Martin.

Oh wait, they did that eight years ago.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Buff

Sure, Boston won a cup after the trade. That's like saying they won a cup after trading Bill Ranford to Edmonton. They traded Thornton mid-season of 2005/06 and won the cup in 2011. Only Patrice Bergeron and Tim Thomas were on the team when Thornton was traded and when they won the Cup. The players Thornton was traded for were not on the Cup winning team in Boston. Of those players they received for Thornton, they were all traded away and only had Andrew Ference to show for on the Cup team. So trading Hamilton isn't going to guarantee the Flames a cup in a few years. It doesn't guarantee we get better.

I like the idea of trading Hamilton for Hanifin and Lindholm because of the players that Hanifin and Lindholm could be. Lindholm is already showing that he can't be what they hoped he could on his draft day. Hanifin is still young and has time, but if he turns out to be as good as Hamilton, we're effectively turning back the clock on Hamilton by 3 years. The idea is great, but there is too much hope for what the players could become and less guarantee that they'll make the team better upon arrival.

I meant they didn't miss him and the character stuff was blown out of proportion when he was in Boston.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Imagine if the Flames traded Hamilton to Toronto with Wotherspoon and Hathaway for a re-signed Bozak, Leo Komarov, Connor Carrick, and Matt Martin.

Oh wait, they did that eight years ago.

But Bozak could be a popular in the room, heart and soul 3rd/4th line center for nearly a decade for us.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

I meant they didn't miss him and the character stuff was blown out of proportion when he was in Boston.

Oh... I mean, Yeah, that's what I thought you meant.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Hanifin and Hamilton as the main pieces pretty much takes the Flames back to 3 years ago when they traded for Hamilton to start with.

Making Hamilton four years younger hurts a lot though, for where the Flames are. It would put him out of sync with the Giordano/Gaudreau/Monahan window, and any window after that one is beyond the horizon. It would fill the valley in our expected performance, but do so by shaving off the peak.

[wretched34]

Originally Posted by Saqe

I'd say Hall would've never become the player he is right now if he still was in Edmonton.



But with Hamilton, I don't really understand the big hole he would supposedly create. If you can get back a 60-70 point winger, the net change in offense is positive.



Yes, the amount of offense you'll get from defense will go down but what does it matter where the offense come from?

It's about a chain reaction.
It's near sited to say, if we trade a 50 point defenseman for a 70 point forward, we are better because we're +20 in points.
Who does that 70 point forward supplant in the forward group? If he pushes Ferland down to the 2nd line, does Ferland still put up 21 goals, or do we lose 5 goals and 10 points from his total? now you're at a +10 net change.
If Dougie isn't on the back end driving play out of his zone and providing offense, does that mean other teams are putting up more points against our top pairing?

Also remember, Dougie didn't get much top PP time for the majority of the year, if Peters doesn't have his head in the sand like Gulutzan, it's quite possible Dougie puts up 10-15 more points this season.

Trading Dougie now, for anything less than a massive overpayment, and I'm not even sure that's out there, unless it's McDavid, would be silly.
I trade Gio 10 times out of 10 before I trade Dougie, and I wouldn't trade Gio.

[Demetric]

Originally Posted by Royle9

So we don't trade him for garbage?
I dont think anyone has come out and said they want to Trade Dougie for anything less than a win.

The only trade scenario mentioned to date that people seem to be upset about is the one in this thread and personally I feel this trade wouldn't be too bad as it addresses a pretty big need.

Hannifin is a younger Dougie basically, playing on a team that was worse out of the gates (never really in the playoff hunt) and playing 2nd pairing minutes for most of the season.

Noah - 18:53 avg TOI - 4th on D time
Doug - 21:32 avg TOI - 3rd on D time

Lindholm would be tied for 4th in points on the Flames with a chance to play on a line with Sean and Johnny who helped Ferland to his first 20g season since junior. I could see Lindholm flourishing on a line with the two of them, plus gives us a RHS on the powerplay no named Brouwer which we desperately need.

So I'd take that deal myself but I'm not Brad

Noah also had most points for D last year in Carolina. with only 8 of his 32 points on the PP.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by Saqe

I'd say Hall would've never become the player he is right now if he still was in Edmonton.



But with Hamilton, I don't really understand the big hole he would supposedly create. If you can get back a 60-70 point winger, the net change in offense is positive.



Yes, the amount of offense you'll get from defense will go down but what does it matter where the offense come from?

Uhh Lindholm put up 44 points last season and has a career high of 45

[Strange Brew]

I don't necessarily mind getting younger. The team had 84 points last year, and hasn't won a playoff game the past 3 seasons. Is it really accurate to talk about a "window" right now?

No doubt the team has some nice pieces but there is some building left to do here IMO.