Building The 2018/19 Flames Roster

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

After listening to the FAN960 this am I think Brouwer is going to get bought out.

Boomer was hinting that Brouwer is complaining about his minutes and he also indicated that folks in the organization are saying his leadership abilities are overblown.

It would be a colossal mistake to buy him out this season. We have the cap space to absorb his contract for another year before Tkachuk, Ferland and Bennett's contracts are up. If need be, we can just bury Brouwer in Stockton and buy him out in 2019. You do not want his dead cap space for 4 seasons. We might actually need the cap space by then.

[Toonage]

Leadership overrated? Huh.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Leadership overrated? Huh.

This organization has been obsessed with character and leadership for the last couple decades. Problem is, they have no understanding of what leadership actually means. Hopefully Brouwer was the last straw that broke the Camel's back and we won't be looking for that kind of "leadership" again.

[Toonage]

I won't lie, I was excited when the Flames signed him a few years ago but yeah, everything that he supposedly brought to the table appeared to be a sham and the guy did play like someone who was happy to get paid to play at home.

Now they can pay him to stay at home.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Him complaining about minutes would be great. Maybe they can trade him and retain some salary instead of buying him out. If he’s willing to accept anywhere that will take him.

I still think unless they really need the 3 mil this season he gets bought out next summer.

[GioforPM]

I don't know that he has complained about his minutes as in "I'm being treated unfairly" but I do get from his quotes that he thinks that he can do more if given a chance ("I can show what I can do" comes to mind as something he's said). I don't think he's being dishonest, except maybe to himself. It's funny though - this is the same as what Bennett supporters say as well.

Looking at his line combos last year, he played so little on the top line it doesn't even register - but he got as many points with Monahan and Gaudreau as with any other linemates. So maybe you can see where, in his mind, he thinks "if only I could play with those guys more I'd be back producing". Of course, he got a significant amount of time with Monahan the year before and did very little with it.

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...es=2017-2018:R

On the other hand, I think he's still got attributes that can be possibly exploited to the team's benefit. He still has a pretty good head for the game, and he's clearly got size and will hit and fight.

As for leadership, I think it's pretty clear he's a popular guy in the room. But that doesn't necessarily make him a good leader (but, on the other hand, being a good producer on the ice doesn't either). Being a funny guy in the room sometimes is part of being a leader, but I think it's more about being a guy who can convince others to play at their best. Frankly, none of us have much insight into who has good leadership skills on the team. We think Backlund because of how he works on the ice, but maybe he's too introverted or quiet. We think Stajan because of his experience and that he's a good guy off the ice, but maybe he's too much of a family man and not a guy who takes players under his wing. Or one might think Tkachuk because he's a win at all costs type, but maybe he's kind of a dick off ice.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It would be a colossal mistake to buy him out this season. We have the cap space to absorb his contract for another year before Tkachuk, Ferland and Bennett's contracts are up. If need be, we can just bury Brouwer in Stockton and buy him out in 2019. You do not want his dead cap space for 4 seasons. We might actually need the cap space by then.

Paying him full salary to play in the AHL wont happen, so the choice is keep him on the roster paying him 2nd/3rd line minutes to toll your 4th line at best. Or the Flames think he will turn it around and they award him with top 6 playing time and significant PP time in hopes he produces.

Or you buy him out, take the 1.5M cap hit for 4 years and use the 3M in savings to go out and get someone else who can produce.

Tough call for sure, not sure I agree with keeping him around myself however.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

In isolation you weren't wrong about either one but broadly using tournament inclusions or exclusions as some sort of gauge on NHL value isn't a sound approach IMHO.

I think Bennett and Murray are probably have similar value. Murray hasn't lived up to his draft billing either and has been passed by several other players on the depth chart.

I would keep Bennett because he has more upside. Murray never had much upside at all.

So yes I think Sam has more value.

Murray dropped in the depth chart? I guess that missing 36 games with a back injury might have something to do with that.

You might not like this metric either.

In the Playoffs he was the #3 D in TOI behind Seth Jones and Werenski. Not bad guys to be passed on the depth chart. Murray was a +3 , Team high was +4.

If Bennett is a comparable value then the Flames do not have a real problem in the top-6. Looking to upgrade on Ferland or Bennett.

[bigrangy]

Brouwer wasn't a good player before coming here but he could at least put up points. He is a complimentary player at the best of times.

He never has been given an extended look with a good center.

I'm hoping that Peters can reclaim him somewhat but he absolutely should not be bought out this year. Trade him @50% or bury him in Stockton, then buy out next summer. I don't want to still be paying Brouwer in 21-22.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Brouwer wasn't a good player before coming here but he could at least put up points. He is a complimentary player at the best of times.

He never has been given an extended look with a good center.

I'm hoping that Peters can reclaim him somewhat but he absolutely should not be bought out this year. Trade him @50% or bury him in Stockton, then buy out next summer. I don't want to still be paying Brouwer in 21-22.

He has played with Backlund a lot.

I tend towards buying him out - he's not useless, but he's a lightning rod, and kind of a block for younger guys when playing down the lineup. Plus, if he's (a) popular in the room and (b) unhappy with his deployment, dissention can develop. It reminds me of when they got rid of Turek. He was still a competent goalie, and was better than whatever backup they could sign, but fans hated him because he didn't turn out to be the stud starter they needed.

[ComixZone]

I'd ask anyone saying "he's not useless" while speaking of Brouwer to find some level of stats to back that up.
He hurts nearly, if not every line he has ever been put on as a Calgary Flame.

He was on the PK - the PK sucked with him.
He was on the PP - the PP sucked with him.

He's awful, and it's one of the worst contracts in Calgary Flames history. If he's complaining about circumstance, it speaks even more to why I dislike this guy. He's been given unearned minutes for two straight years and hasn't produced. There was no reason why Brouwer should have been on PP1 instead of Tkachuk, Backlund or Ferland from day 1 of the 16/17 season onwards.

On the flip side of this, we've never heard a word about Stajan complaining about circumstance. He's played everywhere from the top of the lineup to the bottom, and was more effective in every single one of the spots he's lined up in than any of the spots where Brouwer has.

[Mattman]

In the case of playing on the 1st line with Johnny and Mony... it's earned, not given.

Sorry Brouwer, but you can't say "Put me with the best players on the team then I'll show you".

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I'd ask anyone saying "he's not useless" while speaking of Brouwer to find some level of stats to back that up.
He hurts nearly, if not every line he has ever been put on as a Calgary Flame.

He was on the PK - the PK sucked with him.
He was on the PP - the PP sucked with him.

He's awful, and it's one of the worst contracts in Calgary Flames history. If he's complaining about circumstance, it speaks even more to why I dislike this guy. He's been given unearned minutes for two straight years and hasn't produced. There was no reason why Brouwer should have been on PP1 instead of Tkachuk, Backlund or Ferland from day 1 of the 16/17 season onwards.

On the flip side of this, we've never heard a word about Stajan complaining about circumstance. He's played everywhere from the top of the lineup to the bottom, and was more effective in every single one of the spots he's lined up in than any of the spots where Brouwer has.

He was fine on the PK except when paired with Stajan. Both he and Stajan were good when paired with a younger guy.

The PP thing is overblown. He didn't play a lot of PP1 minutes this year, or even last year. He was mostly on PP2 last year and mostly not even on the PP for the whole middle of this year (he went on when Frolik was injured and at the end of the year).

[Roof-Daddy]

I wish we could deal Brouwer for another bad contract. Get both players a change of scenery, and if it doesn't work out then you can buy out the new guy next summer.

I'd rather take a gamble on that than gamble on Brouwer actually improving with the Flames.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Mattman

In the case of playing on the 1st line with Johnny and Mony... it's earned, not given.

Sorry Brouwer, but you can't say "Put me with the best players on the team then I'll show you".

I agree. But I think it's worth noting that this is the same argument that Bennett supporters use. And the same argument that Ferland detractors use.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He was fine on the PK except when paired with Stajan. Both he and Stajan were good when paired with a younger guy.

The PP thing is overblown. He didn't play a lot of PP1 minutes this year, or even last year. He was mostly on PP2 last year and mostly not even on the PP for the whole middle of this year (he went on when Frolik was injured and at the end of the year).

From The Athletic's top 25 buyout candidates , on which Brouwer ranks #1 in the entire league:

Instead, Brouwer fell to 22 points, and failed to hit double digits in goals for the first time in his NHL career. He’s playing fourth line minutes at even-strength, along with a heavy dose of special teams time, but even that could be curtailed: Calgary’s penalty kill allowed more than 10 goals per hour while he was on the ice, while its power play managed less than four goals per hour when he was on it.

Brouwer was awful on the PK, and the PP.

His PP linemates in 17/18:
23.3 BROUWER,TROY - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY - MONAHAN,SEAN - VERSTEEG,KRIS
15.9 BROUWER,TROY - FERLAND,MICHEAL - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY - MONAHAN,SEAN
11.9 BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY
8.3 BROUWER,TROY - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY - MONAHAN,SEAN - TKACHUK,MATTHEW

The majority of his PP time was with the players that would be on PP1.

Troy Brouwer was the worst mainstay player on the Calgary Flames in 2017/2018.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Paying him full salary to play in the AHL wont happen, so the choice is keep him on the roster paying him 2nd/3rd line minutes to toll your 4th line at best. Or the Flames think he will turn it around and they award him with top 6 playing time and significant PP time in hopes he produces.

Or you buy him out, take the 1.5M cap hit for 4 years and use the 3M in savings to go out and get someone else who can produce.

Tough call for sure, not sure I agree with keeping him around myself however.

I don't see how paying him to play in the AHL is completely out of the question. If someone outplays him in camp and he doesn't make the team, without anywhere else, he would be playing in Stockton. The samething already happened to Mason Raymond, Brandon Bollig and etc, so it's not unprecedented.

But like I said, if need be. But the more likely scenario is that he once again makes the team and plays as a utility player on the bottom 2 lines and maybe sits a few games out.

Ultimately though, Brad will set himself up for the future and it would be smart to eat the contract for 18-19 with the generous amount of cap space we'll have and clear his contract fully when we need it most down the road.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

As for leadership, I think it's pretty clear he's a popular guy in the room. But that doesn't necessarily make him a good leader (but, on the other hand, being a good producer on the ice doesn't either). Being a funny guy in the room sometimes is part of being a leader, but I think it's more about being a guy who can convince others to play at their best.

Actually I’ve heard several of our players resent Brouwer and the ice time he gets compared to what he accomplishes with it. The players are watching as closely as we do and they’ve surely noticed how much plays die on his stick and how much he’s squandered the opportunities he’s had. They know he’s been gifted ice time due to his salary that he’s failed to earn. If he’s widely resented by the fan base for doing little to nothing on the ice then it’s likely some players feel the same way.

If Brouwer is a divisive topic for the team and it’s players then that’s a reason to buy him out IMO. I’m not convinced we’ll see it but it’s an option. We have guys on the farm like Foo who seem to be able to bring what Brouwer brought with an upside that I’m not sure Brouwer has anymore. If Brouwer is impeding young players from getting the ice time they need that’s another reason to buy him out.

Should be interesting to see if anything happens with him. I don’t have much hope for Brouwer redemption. Cutting bait might be best despite the length of the buyout.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He was fine on the PK except when paired with Stajan. Both he and Stajan were good when paired with a younger guy.

The PP thing is overblown. He didn't play a lot of PP1 minutes this year, or even last year. He was mostly on PP2 last year and mostly not even on the PP for the whole middle of this year (he went on when Frolik was injured and at the end of the year).

To add to your point, his performance on the PP in 16-17 was half decent (4th in PP goals) and we ended up with a top 10 PP. So I would agree he gets far too much blame for everything that went wrong this season.

But at the end of the day, it's hard to find positives for a guy who is not only overpaid but who has seen his play deteriorate almost the day he arrived. He looks slow, can't finish and has almost zero poise. Classic whipping boy.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I don't see how paying him to play in the AHL is completely out of the question. If someone outplays him in camp and he doesn't make the team, without anywhere else, he would be playing in Stockton. The samething already happened to Mason Raymond, Brandon Bollig and etc, so it's not unprecedented.

But like I said, if need be. But the more likely scenario is that he once again makes the team and plays as a utility player on the bottom 2 lines and maybe sits a few games out.

Ultimately though, Brad will set himself up for the future and it would be smart to eat the contract for 18-19 with the generous amount of cap space we'll have and clear his contract fully when we need it most down the road.

I dont disagree with wanting to do it, I feel he should be there if hes kept on the flames.

I just don't see it happening in Calgary between the owners and the management within the organization or we would have seen it happen this year as well.

One can dream though!