2017/2018 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by activeStick

I know it's not impossible, but I really don't understand why some people insist on placing Valimaki in their mock lineups, and in the Top 4, to boot for some.

He's a great prospect, I agree. Had a very good year in the WHL, I agree. But prospects take time and the odds that he makes the jump this October into the Flames opening day lineup, let alone cracking the Top 4 are extremely low. He was drafted less than 12 months ago.

Because some of us feel he's a top prospect and right up there with Andersson as the most NHL ready of our young dmen. Jacob Chychrun was drafted around the same area and stepped into the NHL immediately. Regehr didn't really see any AHL time after his junior career. McAvoy went straight to the NHL from college. Top prospects don't usually need as much or any time in the minors.

What is holding Valimaki back? He has NHL size, strength, skating and skill it would appear. So he may be NHL ready as this fall. I wouldn't bet my house on it but I certainly wouldn't bet my house against it either. IMO he's a lot closer to the NHL than Kylington or Fox. I think he's a strong contender to make the NHL club and potentially a reason why Treliving may feel comfortable trading one of Hamilton, Brodie or Stone.

I guess in the end how close Treliving feels Valimaki and Andersson are and what their upside is will determine if we have an excess of dmen immediately that can be dealt from or if he wants one more summer before dealing a top 4 dman. I'm not convinced Andersson will be a top 4 guy. But I am convinced Valimaki will, and could even be a top pairing guy within 2 years.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

and the third small but vocal group:

3) Hamilton is a problem on this team, and the Flames would be better off trading him.

Well some of those people should be on our ignore lists

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well some of those people should be on our ignore lists

If we only get to see posts from people we agree with all the time then it's not very fun to post here

^ In terms of putting Valimaki right into the lineup....I personally include him because I think he's good enough.

Similar pedigree to guys like Sergachev, Werenski, McAvoy, Chabot, Provorov who have walked right into the line up in their draft +2 seasons with little to no AHL time.

4 of those guys played big roles on playoff teams this year as guys under 21 years old. Why can't Valimaki have a similar impact for this team next year?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

This team doesn't need to trade Hamilton - or even Brodie. This team just needs to play a better system, and I am hopeful that Peters can turn this team around by doing exactly that. The strength of this team is in the defence. Outside of maybe Stone, I would hate any moves being made on defence, unless of course the returns were outstanding.

I think this team has the horses to play better defence. I think they have the horses to pot a lot more goals in the net too.

Everyone on this board has seen Brodie become an absolute elite defencemen, and maintain that play for a very long stretch. I think confidence and a system that doesn't play to his (or most of the other D for that matter) strengths.

Hamilton does take the odd lazy penalty. He does lose his man in the defensive zone sometimes. He isn't perfect. What he is, however, is damn good.

Any talk of trading Giordano is foolhardy. He is not only the captain, but he does an awesome job of setting the tones in practices and on the ice, and he brings a tonne to the organization through his charities. Aside from that, I rank him solidly in the top 5 in the NHL for defencemen. That's how many D I think are possibly better than Giordano at BOTH ends of the rink. He is a fricken rock defensively, and he is so good at moving the puck up and generating offence. He even has a really nice shot. Top 5 in my books, and I think he is worth keeping around to pass on his knowledge to the rest of the defence. Having someone on the team that is that good all over the ice - someone that responsible in his own end - that valuable to the development of the other D. He is the last D I trade, age be damned.

I don't think there is a snowballs chance in hell that BT returns the same roster from last year. None....zip....nadda.

He himself stated as much when Gulutzan was canned. Or at least that's how i interpreted what he was saying.

Brodie
Hamilton
Stone
Jankowski
Bennett
Backlund
Frolik
Brouwer

And add in a bunch of the prospects on D. Valimaki/Kylington/Andersson/Fox

I would suggest at least one, likely two, maybe 3 of those guys wont be here come October.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

If we only get to see posts from people we agree with all the time then it's not very fun to post here

^ In terms of putting Valimaki right into the lineup....I personally include him because I think he's good enough.

Similar pedigree to guys like Sergachev, Werenski, McAvoy, Chabot, Provorov who have walked right into the line up in their draft +2 seasons with little to no AHL time.

4 of those guys played big roles on playoff teams this year as guys under 21 years old. Why can't Valimaki have a similar impact for this team next year?

guys from CHL were #7 and #9 overall The 2 from the NCAA had 2 years playing against older more mature players. Chabot #18 overall was the closest comparable..... but he was on Ottawa... a bad team with at most 5 NHL level d-men before injuries and trades. The NHL was a development league for Ottawa last year.

I have no problem with Valimaki getting a full year in the AHL.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Perhaps his scoring suppression stats are inflated because he does not play on the PK?



Perhaps his scoring chance generation is inflated as he does not play the PK. Not a lot of scoring chance per minute when killing a penalty.







Clarification question: If he is so good on scoring suppression and scoring why is is plus/minus +1 Tied for 100th among defenseman with 40 games.



The relatively low scoring chances he gives up must be converted into goals at an above average rate.





The Flames goalies are either very bad OR he gives up really bad scoring chances. That might indicate that his hockey sense is not a B+

What’s his +\- rank on the Flames? That stat is completely meaningless when looked at compared with the entire league.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Perhaps his scoring suppression stats are inflated because he does not play on the PK?

Perhaps his scoring chance generation is inflated as he does not play the PK. Not a lot of scoring chance per minute when killing a penalty.



Clarification question: If he is so good on scoring suppression and scoring why is is plus/minus +1 Tied for 100th among defenseman with 40 games.

The relatively low scoring chances he gives up must be converted into goals at an above average rate.


The Flames goalies are either very bad OR he gives up really bad scoring chances. That might indicate that his hockey sense is not a B+

Maybe our terrible coach just wasn't deploying Dougie properly? Probably should be on PK1 and PP1. Our special teams were terrible. Perhaps part of the problem was not using our best players in the best roles?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I don't think there is a snowballs chance in hell that BT returns the same roster from last year. None....zip....nadda.

He himself stated as much when Gulutzan was canned. Or at least that's how i interpreted what he was saying.

Brodie
Hamilton
Stone
Jankowski
Bennett
Backlund
Frolik
Brouwer

And add in a bunch of the prospects on D. Valimaki/Kylington/Andersson/Fox

I would suggest at least one, likely two, maybe 3 of those guys wont be here come October.

I look at our 2015-16 Roster, and we were 10th in the NHL in goal scoring.
The following players were all a part of that group and that shouldn't be ignored:

Brodie
Hamilton
Bennett
Backlund
Frolik

If we could be an offensive team with these guys before, one bad year from four of them seems like an unwise reason to move them.

So that leaves:

Jankowski (17G)
Stone
Brouwer

as guys who weren't a part of that group. Obviously Stone and Brouwer don't have the most trade value but sometimes you can improve by subtraction. Anyways, the 2015-16 squad had some "roster changes" too - Colborne out, Jooris out, and at the deadline Hudler/Russell/Jones out. Chiasson in. Brouwer in. Versteeg in.

I think that's a template for the kind of "changes" we'll see from Treliving. Hathaway/Stajan out and a questionable UFA signing, maybe Tyler Bozak or David Perron. Maybe a Lazar trade if they've seen enough. Maybe a lateral move on that PP specialist i.e. Versteeg for Vanek.

[wretched34]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I guess if someone wanted to give us PK Subban for Gio you'd listen.

The team certainly won't be shopping Gio as a couple posters made the silly suggestion to do. You listen to offers on anybody but I doubt any team will make an offer that Treliving would be comfortable giving up Gio for.

I agree, Treliving is not shopping Gio, and shouldn't be, but in my eyes, shopping Dougie is even sillier. I can't understand why so many posters are not only serious about moving him, but hopeful of doing so.

Hypothetically, lets say a team makes Treliving an offer, that he will accept, that includes a top 6 RW under 27, and a 1st rounder. The return has to be Gio, or Hamilton, who does he move?

Gio is the better "All around" Defenseman now, hands down.
Hamilton is the better offesnive Defenseman.
Gio will be 35 this upcoming season, and has 4 more years on his contract at $6.75M.
Hamilton will be 25 this seasons and has 3 more seasons at $5.75M

I'd say our current core has an average age of 25.5, and are locked in for the next 3+ years.

I think it's a pretty tough call to make, personally I move Gio, and sign a solid veteran defensive defenseman as a UFA, but give one of the prospects and actual chance to become an NHLer.

Vegas, Winnipeg, Washington, Tampa and Nashville all have defensive cores that are made up of young prospects proving themselves, or veterans that were young prospects that proved themselves. Eventually the Flames need to give some of their prospects that opportunity. Andersson, Kylington, Valimaki, they could all make a push this year. Now's the time to let them grow, along with the rest of the core, rather than filling holes with Bartkowski's

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by wretched34

I agree, Treliving is not shopping Gio, and shouldn't be, but in my eyes, shopping Dougie is even sillier. I can't understand why so many posters are not only serious about moving him, but hopeful of doing so.

Hypothetically, lets say a team makes Treliving an offer, that he will accept, that includes a top 6 RW under 27, and a 1st rounder. The return has to be Gio, or Hamilton, who does he move?

Gio is the better "All around" Defenseman now, hands down.
Hamilton is the better offesnive Defenseman.
Gio will be 35 this upcoming season, and has 4 more years on his contract at $6.75M.
Hamilton will be 25 this seasons and has 3 more seasons at $5.75M

I'd say our current core has an average age of 25.5, and are locked in for the next 3+ years.

I think it's a pretty tough call to make, personally I move Gio, and sign a solid veteran defensive defenseman as a UFA, but give one of the prospects and actual chance to become an NHLer.

Vegas, Winnipeg, Washington, Tampa and Nashville all have defensive cores that are made up of young prospects proving themselves, or veterans that were young prospects that proved themselves. Eventually the Flames need to give some of their prospects that opportunity. Andersson, Kylington, Valimaki, they could all make a push this year. Now's the time to let them grow, along with the rest of the core, rather than filling holes with Bartkowski's

Take it even further and ask why trade either Hamilton or Giordano? Some have suggested Mark Stone who I like a lot but if everyone is so high on Valimaki and Anderson (I am too) and want them in the lineup potentially next year why not move 1 or 2 of Stone, Brodie, Kulak or Hamonic? Hamonic might be hard to trade because of what we paid but I'm sure Treliving can get a pick for Stone and a first for Brodie. If you traded those 2 there is potential to sign Kane and another quality forward with the 8 mil extra cap space. Even if Treliving traded Kulak and Stone to make room for Valimaki and Anderson it saves a fair amount of space to sign a Kane type UFA maybe even 2 guys of that caliber up front

To me Kane and Hamilton are way better than Mark Stone and I don't think you lose anything if your bottom pairing on d is Valimaki and Anderson over Stone and Kulak.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

guys from CHL were #7 and #9 overall The 2 from the NCAA had 2 years playing against older more mature players. Chabot #18 overall was the closest comparable..... but he was on Ottawa... a bad team with at most 5 NHL level d-men before injuries and trades. The NHL was a development league for Ottawa last year.

I have no problem with Valimaki getting a full year in the AHL.

Oh I have nothing against him getting a full year in the AHL - I just don't think this team needs to block him with another veteran.

The way I look at it Stone and Bartkowski should be gone from last years team.

You have Giordano, Hamilton, Brodie, Hamonic as your top 4, and all our guys that have been proven as capable top 4 d-men in the past.

We'd then have 3 spots remaining. IMO Kulak is a lock for one of them. Then you have two spots left between Andersson, Valimaki, Kylington, Wotherspoon (if he's still in the org or a similar type).

My personal feeling is just that he will be so impressive in training camp that they he will outplay the other guys for that spot, and maybe even Kulak & Personally think his draft ranking means little now, he has outperformed his rank.

If you compare draft + 1 seasons (playoffs and regular season):

- Provorov: GP: 83 P:86 +/-: 64 (8 points in 7 WJC games)
- Sergachev GP: 57 P:46 +/-: 22 ( 1 point in 7 WJC games)
- Valimaki GP: 55 P:62 +/-: 15 (4 points in 5 WJC games - captain)

Provorov is probably a slight tier ahead of the other two but no reason IMO that Valimaki can't step in to be a contributor after ~40 AHL games or even right out of training camp.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by wretched34

I agree, Treliving is not shopping Gio, and shouldn't be, but in my eyes, shopping Dougie is even sillier. I can't understand why so many posters are not only serious about moving him, but hopeful of doing so.

I think its a super small minority that want Hamilton shopped. I highly doubt the Flames are actively shopping him. My opinion is that Treliving will listen to all offers and there may be some crazy interest in Hamilton this summer. Whether our management considers Hamilton a core piece moving forward none of us really know. If he's a core piece he's unlikely to be moved. If they think with his warts that he's a piece that could be moved if somebody paid the sun and moon because we have great defensive depth then that's the only scenario in which he's moved IMO.

IMO the best options for improving the team are in order of preference:

1. Getting a difference making UFA for nothing but cap space. Tavares the total pipe dream. JVR, Kane, Neal and Perron being some what intriguing. But as always UFA contracts are often horrid and bad value near the end of them. So Treliving would have to be very careful especially with the guys who aren't as young.

2. Trading Brodie for a top 6 forward. I don't think Brodie's value has tanked as much as some people do because I think NHL scouts and GMs always look at a player's entire career when evaluating them. We think Brodie may just have looked bad under Gulutzan on the left side? Bet you at least one GM or head scout thinks the same way and is willing to give him another opportunity. I think Brodie will still have good value. Top 4 defensemen at his age, with his contract will always be worth quite a lot.

3. Trading Stone for a top 6 forward. This one might be a bit more of a stretch but Stone has played top 4 at times and is a RH shot which some teams are in dire need of. He brings that physicality along the boards that some teams need more of as well. I suspect he might be worth more than some people think.

4. Trading Hamilton for a big haul. Hamilton is the guy I'd most like to keep out of Hamilton/Brodie/Stone but he's also by far the most valuable. I waver on whether I think he's core or untouchable because his play in his own zone is frustrating at times. I think you only deal him if you get an incredible package back. But I think he's the type of guy that some GMs will offer an incredible amount for.

I think all those options are worth talking about. Obviously we've spent the most time talking about #4 and probably not enough time talking about #2 and #3. It's really hard to us to gauge which UFAs would have interest in coming here and which UFAs we'd be willing to give a competitive offer to. Obviously Tavares is a guy that I think Treliving would love to go after and I think there could be a tiny chance he would pick CGY. But I still say options #2 and #3 are the most likely.

I think the team can easily afford to trade one of Brodie or Stone. I think Kulak replaces Brodie and that Valimaki can replace Kulak. I think Andersson can replace Stone although different types of players there and we would lose a bit of physicality and edge in making that swap.

Problem with the Brodie discussions is that people don't seem to agree on what he could fetch. Hard to gauge Stone's value as fans as well.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I have no problem with Valimaki getting a full year in the AHL.

I doubt anybody would if he needs it.

I think you'll find Valimaki is so close to NHL ready that he's not ever going to play a full season worth's of AHL games. I would be shocked if he spent the whole year down there. I'm not against it if he needs it but I think he's a lot closer than that.

Your examples are countered by many CHL examples where the player stepped in that early. Including the Chychrun and Regehr examples I provided earlier. On a worse team Valimaki may have stepped right into the NHL after the draft. He had a strong training camp last year.

[Yrebmi]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Most of you need to give up on the idea that Brodie will magically improve if we trade Hamilton. That is unlikely at best.

The concept that Brodie will magically improve due to Hamilton being traded is ludicrous.

The idea that Brodie may return to form playing back the RHS or with new coaching is not so far fetched.

[Jay Random]

The idea that Brodie will improve enough to make Hamilton expendable is pretty silly. A number of posters seem to be counting on that.

[GranteedEV]

In the best year of Brodie's career, Dougie Hamilton was on the team.

Granted, Hamilton has his own issues because he was the guy without an especially capable partner (I consider Russell = Hamonic personally, regardless of what the size aesthetic makes it seem like) but I still see our big 3 D as being Brodie, Giordano, and Hamilton. They're not mutually incompatible.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Russell = Hamonic? I hope you're in the minority.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

Russell = Hamonic? I hope you're in the minority.

He is.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

In the best year of Brodie's career, Dougie Hamilton was on the team.

Granted, Hamilton has his own issues because he was the guy without an especially capable partner (I consider Russell = Hamonic personally, regardless of what the size aesthetic makes it seem like) but I still see our big 3 D as being Brodie, Giordano, and Hamilton. They're not mutually incompatible.

“Size aesthetic” is the defining difference between the value of Hamonic and Russell?

Try again.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I think Kris Russell gets a rough ride here. He’s not big, but was pretty good at getting position, decent stick, definitely fearless at blocking shots, decent at moving the puck.

His points per game career wise, and in his best year is pretty similar to Hamonic.

His teammates loved him. He was a big part of the team that made the playoffs in 14-15.

Hamonic wasn’t so impressive last year. Maybe someone can elaborate on what is great about Hamonic.