2017/2018 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[Monahammer]

Most of you need to give up on the idea that Brodie will magically improve if we trade Hamilton. That is unlikely at best.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Nelson

I also think we should look to move Giordano right now. It would be really tough because he is the leader, a top-10 defenceman league-wide, and I love him, but he is 34. This means, sooner or later, his depreciation will start and grow exponentially. If the Flames trade him now (for the right price), they will trade their asset while it’s highly valued. This will mean a greater return. Let’s not do what we did with Iginla.

That's a rebuilding/tear down move. We are not in the tear down phase. We can compete during Giordano's window.

I think talk of moving Giordano is pure silliness.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Are you going into next season with the EXACT same roster (top 6-9 for example) less the UFA's and expecting exponentially better results?

I actually feel like there are others who based their posting history are proposing we trade Hamilton because they actually thinks he is a bad hockey player.

The problem with trading Hamilton is that you are unlikely to get fair value in return IMO. If you can actually get a 1st line forward + picks then great but I just don't see a deal like that on the cards this offseason.

You are much better off trying to use some combination of Hamonic/Brodie/Stone, our prospects (Andersson/Kylington), and draft picks.

Personally I do think a new coach, an infusion of youth into the lineup, and addition by subtraction from getting rid of washed up veterans can help this team take the next step.

On the back end something like:

Giordano - Hamilton
Valimaki - Hamonic
Brodie - Andersson
Kulak

Valimaki is an elite prospect on the same level as guys like Provorov and Sergachev, he has the potential to step in and be a difference maker. That defense is skilled, fast, and pretty strong defensively. Give that a shot.

Up front they need to split up the 3M to provide better balance in our top 9 and then find a scoring winger for Gaudreau/Monahan. While getting younger/faster on our 4th line.

Gaudreau - Monahan - ??? (Hoffman)
Tkachuk - Jankowski - Bennett
Ferland - Backlund - Frolik
Mangiapane - Shore - Hathaway/Lazar

I still feel like something around Stone + Prospects for Hoffman is something that will make sense for both Ottawa and Calgary.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Goal Scoring: A Good at finding a hole in the offensive zone and getting his shot through. Led NHL d-men in goals.

Passing: B Good breakout for the most part, top 40 d-man in assists

Hockey Sense: B- Makes some questionable decisions but overall solid.

Shot Generation: A + (Highest CF/60 among d-men playing over 500 minutes)

Shot Suppression: A (22nd lowest Corsi against per 60 among d-men playing over 500 minutes)

Scoring Chance Generation: A+ (8th among d-men playing over 500 minutes)

Scoring Chance Suppression: A (22nd lowest scoring chances against per 60 among d-men playing over 500 minutes.)

Physicality: C (About as many hits/game as Gio/Hamonic, but doesn't block as many shots.)

So overall he is pretty great but his Ricardo Grit Index (Hits, Blocked Shots, other over-rated crap) isn't up to the Ricardo standard so we should get rid of him as soon as possible.

Perhaps his scoring suppression stats are inflated because he does not play on the PK?

Perhaps his scoring chance generation is inflated as he does not play the PK. Not a lot of scoring chance per minute when killing a penalty.



Clarification question: If he is so good on scoring suppression and scoring why is is plus/minus +1 Tied for 100th among defenseman with 40 games.

The relatively low scoring chances he gives up must be converted into goals at an above average rate.


The Flames goalies are either very bad OR he gives up really bad scoring chances. That might indicate that his hockey sense is not a B+

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I think talk of moving Giordano is pure silliness.

He really hasn't even started to decline. Kent Wilson's latest article over at The Athletic show just how elite he is. Outside of an odd year for primary assists, the dude was absolutely elite.

The more elite skill you have, the better.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Perhaps his scoring suppression stats are inflated because he does not play on the PK?

Perhaps his scoring chance generation is inflated as he does not play the PK. Not a lot of scoring chance per minute when killing a penalty.



Clarification question: If he is so good on scoring suppression and scoring why is is plus/minus +1 Tied for 100th among defenseman with 40 games.

The relatively low scoring chances he gives up must be converted into goals at an above average rate.


The Flames goalies are either very bad OR he gives up really bad scoring chances. That might indicate that his hockey sense is not a B+

I'm assuming those are all 5 v 5 numbers. Dougie Hamilton is really good.

[wretched34]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

That's a rebuilding/tear down move. We are not in the tear down phase. We can compete during Giordano's window.

I think talk of moving Giordano is pure silliness.

Was it a tear down, rebuild, when the Nashville Predators traded arguably one of the best all around defensemen in the game at age 31, for a younger defenseman with "Character issues"?

People want to trade 24 year old Hamilton, but it's silly to trade 34 year old Gio....

I keep Hamilton over Gio every day, especially with the young core of this team.

[Toonage]

I've said this before, Gio is a genetic freak.

Also, to the folks suggesting Ottawa will be moving their 1st this year, not when they owe next year's first to Colorado.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

He really hasn't even started to decline. Kent Wilson's latest article over at The Athletic show just how elite he is. Outside of an odd year for primary assists, the dude was absolutely elite.

The more elite skill you have, the better.

It's true. I was wrong.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by wretched34

Was it a tear down, rebuild, when the Nashville Predators traded arguably one of the best all around defensemen in the game at age 31, for a younger defenseman with "Character issues"?

People want to trade 24 year old Hamilton, but it's silly to trade 34 year old Gio....

I keep Hamilton over Gio every day, especially with the young core of this team.

This is also a good point. If the Flames could actually get a similarly elite defenceman to Giordano, who is years younger, I think they do it. But that's probably not going to happen. However, Marc Bergevin did trade PK Subban for Shea Weber so you never know.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Would be very Flames to trade a highly skilled young player because of "Character" and "Grit"...how did that work with Marc Savard.

In the last 10 years here are the top 5 d-men by points before their 25th birthday.

Karlsson - GP: 397 P: 303 +/-: -19
Doughty - GP: 442 P: 221 +/-: 36
Hamilton - GP: 423 P:220 +/-:22
Pietrangelo - GP:386 P: 218 +/-: 43
Ekman Larsson - GP: 415 P:209 +/-: -20

Remind me again why we are even thinking about trading a d-man who is a possession driver against top competition, puts up over 0.5 PPG, and is a positive player at even strength...all before he even turned 25.

That's right because of "Character" and "Grit"...I honestly hope that Treliving is smarter than thinking that Hamilton not hitting enough, or showing enough "heart" is the source of this team's problems this year. Scoring goals, and our PP were our biggest issues, both areas that Hamilton helps not hurts.

Well Marc Savard was traded for nothing. No one here is advocating trading Hamilton for nothing.

Why are we even thinking about trading a d-man who is a possession driver against top competition, puts up over 0.5 PPG, and is a positive player at even strength...all before he even turned 25?

I don't think the Flames are shopping him. But you would perhaps part with him because:
1. Defense is the greatest area of depth on the Flames. With the current roster as it is plus Valimaki, Andersson, Kylington and Fox something has to give. We can afford to trade a top 4 dman right now and likely not really lose a step. In particular our prospects are heavy on puck movers so its likely we move a puck mover. Therefore Brodie and Hamilton make the most sense to move if you wanna trade from our position of strength.
2. Hamilton's value because of the reasons you mentioned should be astronomical.

Hamilton isn't a problem. I don't think the Flames are shopping him or are desperately looking to move him IMO. I think you're characterizing this incorrectly. It's not all about grit and character. Although those may be reasons why management doesn't include Hamilton in the untouchable category on the Flames.

I think Treliving will listen to all offers that improve the team. Hamilton is one of the most valuable pieces we have and therefore will receive some of the craziest offers. It's Treliving's job to listen to these offers and if any truly improve the team then he should consider them.

No one is saying we have to move Hamilton. No one is saying he's a big problem. But as one of the most valuable trade chips on the team at the position the Flames are deepest in he may garner some ridiculous trade offers from other teams. And if he doesn't? You happily keep him and then maybe sign an UFA or trade Brodie instead.

I think one side of this debate (the must keep Hamilton folks) are characterizing the other side's (you'd listen to offers on Hamilton) position incorrectly. I highly doubt the Flames are actively trying to get rid of Hamilton because of grit/character issues. But arguably he could be replaceable and arguably his value is sky high. I know some people don't think we can replace him and that's fair. But don't try and make it out like people are trying to run Hamilton out of town, that isn't the case. People are looking at where the Flames have an excess of assets (defense) with young defensemen near NHL ready in Valimaki and Andersson and deducing that if Treliving wants to make a big shakeup trade that it likely involves moving Brodie or Hamilton. My preference would be to move Brodie. But Hamilton may get you 3-5 times as much as Brodie and you can't ignore offers on him if you think the team can replace him from within.

I mean its either sign an UFA, trade Brodie, Hamilton, Stone or Fox. Treliving will explore all options and listen to all offers. If he gets an absolutely insane offer for Hamilton, that is the only scenario in which most of thinks he moves. I don't think we should close our minds to that possibility.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by calgaryfox

It amazes me that some CP'ers solely use statistics to justify a players' value to the team. Sure, Hamilton has great offensive numbers, but to me, he just doesn't pass the 'old school' eyeball test to qualify him as an elite defenseman earning north of $6m.

His defensive deficiencies cause as many goals against as he scores, either directly or indirectly. I agree that he's still young, but he has over 400 NHL games under his belt and doesn't seem to learn for his mistakes.

From what I see, his defensive hockey IQ is a "C" at best and his lack of body positional awareness is brutal to watch and leads to a ridiculous amount of bonehead penalties.

Passing is dire, "C" .He continually gives away possession by sending knee high passes out of the zone - or icing the puck.

Physicality - C-. Despite his size, he does not dominate, or intimidate.

I wouldn't lose any sleep if Flames traded Dougie for a much needed top RW to add 25+goals and 60 points and bring in a solid DEFENDER which would also reduce the amount of goals against.

I guess I'm just not a Dougie fan and feel that the return we could get for him right now could potentially give us the right tools to be a contender next year.

I think you are mistaking #27 with #7. Maybe every time you watch the game you can only see 7 and assume it is Hamilton?

[Inglewood Jack]

when people say we should listen to offers for Dougie because he could fetch a king's ransom, I really hope you mean something like "Boston just changed their mind about this uppity loner and are offering us Pastrnak for him!!"...then in that case yes, I will personally drive Dougie to the airport. but anything that's a mix of picks, prospects and meh-quality 60ish point wingers, that does not qualify as a king's ransom.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The problem with trading Hamilton is that you are unlikely to get fair value in return IMO. If you can actually get a 1st line forward + picks then great but I just don't see a deal like that on the cards this offseason.

I don't know why anybody would believe that we would be unlikely to get fair value in return. If you don't get fair value in return then you don't deal him, easy as that.

Why would you get fair value on return?
1. He's one of the two most premium assets in the NHL. He's a top pairing defenseman which is right up there with 1st line centre as the most valuable positions in the league in terms of trade value.
2. He's young
3. He's on a great contract
4. His numbers are great
5. He's a RH shot which some teams completely lack in their top pairing or even their top 4. The Flames had issues with this for years and some teams have a real problem with it
6. He's got good size

Hamilton's value is HUGE because of the above reasons. Why wouldn't you get fair value for him? He's a premium asset that many teams would covet.

If you don't get an insane offer for him you don't consider moving him. A lot of us are merely saying that Treliving will listen to offers and that there may be some crazy good offers for him this summer.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by wretched34

Was it a tear down, rebuild, when the Nashville Predators traded arguably one of the best all around defensemen in the game at age 31, for a younger defenseman with "Character issues"?

People want to trade 24 year old Hamilton, but it's silly to trade 34 year old Gio....

I keep Hamilton over Gio every day, especially with the young core of this team.

I guess if someone wanted to give us PK Subban for Gio you'd listen.

The team certainly won't be shopping Gio as a couple posters made the silly suggestion to do. You listen to offers on anybody but I doubt any team will make an offer that Treliving would be comfortable giving up Gio for.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Perhaps his scoring suppression stats are inflated because he does not play on the PK?

Perhaps his scoring chance generation is inflated as he does not play the PK. Not a lot of scoring chance per minute when killing a penalty.



Clarification question: If he is so good on scoring suppression and scoring why is is plus/minus +1 Tied for 100th among defenseman with 40 games.

The relatively low scoring chances he gives up must be converted into goals at an above average rate.

The Flames goalies are either very bad OR he gives up really bad scoring chances. That might indicate that his hockey sense is not a B+

Well for one those stats are Even Strength only so that means that his PK or PP prowess would have nothing to do with it.

And being +1 on a team that was overall a -20 at even strength is actually pretty good is it not? If we are going to use +/- as a determining factor than TJ Brodie (-19), Hamonic (-9), and Stone (-11) should all be moved first.

And in terms of his +/- there was the indication of a lower than average save percentage with him and Giordano on the ice last year. Which for the most part is bad goaltending / facing a higher quality of competition.

Giordano: GA-72 Save%- .903
Hamilton: GA-72 Save%- .903
Brodie: GA-67 Save%- .909
Hamonic: GA-44 Save%- .917

The year before Giordano/Hamilton had a .914 save percentage when on the ice it's hard to tell how much of that .903 save percentage is because of them, or just that our goalies were below average with them on the ice.

Plus there is still one more stat that is High Danger Scoring chances against - and guess what he ranks really well there too.

Ranks 34th in the league giving up 9.36 High Danger chances against per 60 minutes with him on the ice, the lowest on the Flames.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I actually feel like there are others who based their posting history are proposing we trade Hamilton because they actually thinks he is a bad hockey player.

The problem with trading Hamilton is that you are unlikely to get fair value in return IMO. If you can actually get a 1st line forward + picks then great but I just don't see a deal like that on the cards this offseason.

You are much better off trying to use some combination of Hamonic/Brodie/Stone, our prospects (Andersson/Kylington), and draft picks.

Sorry, sure there may be others but I just wanted to be clear I'm not in that group here.

That's the best part, if we DON'T get top dollar then we don't move him. We have the power, we have an elite defenseman at a very manageable cap hit coming off his best season to date and is still under 25.

There's a handful of teams with a very heavy top 6 skilled group but not so great back-end that I think would give up a 60-90pt winger + 1st and or A level prospect to land Hamilton - Toronto is the example I often use.

If there are none, or nobody feels they need to give us the premium we want then I'm with you! We don't trade him.

That's the greatest thing about being in a power position going into this draft day/off-season in my opinion. We have no picks but we'll have a coveted defenseman we can ask a kings ransom for and maybe someone bites.

[activeStick]

I know it's not impossible, but I really don't understand why some people insist on placing Valimaki in their mock lineups, and in the Top 4, to boot for some.

He's a great prospect, I agree. Had a very good year in the WHL, I agree. But prospects take time and the odds that he makes the jump this October into the Flames opening day lineup, let alone cracking the Top 4 are extremely low. He was drafted less than 12 months ago.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I don't know why anybody would believe that we would be unlikely to get fair value in return. If you don't get fair value in return then you don't deal him, easy as that.

Why would you get fair value on return?
1. He's one of the two most premium assets in the NHL. He's a top pairing defenseman which is right up there with 1st line centre as the most valuable positions in the league in terms of trade value.
2. He's young
3. He's on a great contract
4. His numbers are great
5. He's a RH shot which some teams completely lack in their top pairing or even their top 4. The Flames had issues with this for years and some teams have a real problem with it
6. He's got good size

Hamilton's value is HUGE because of the above reasons. Why wouldn't you get fair value for him? He's a premium asset that many teams would covet.

If you don't get an insane offer for him you don't consider moving him. A lot of us are merely saying that Treliving will listen to offers and that there may be some crazy good offers for him this summer.

Think the problem is there are actually 3 groups in this debate.

1) Keep Hamilton
2) Trade Hamilton if you get fair value

and the third small but vocal group:

3) Hamilton is a problem on this team, and the Flames would be better off trading him.

People in the first two groups are pretty aligned but the people in the 2nd group see people in group 1 arguing with group 3 and think the group 1 people don't want to see Hamilton traded at any cost.

Hey if somebody wants to offer us Taylor Hall or David Pastrnak for Hamilton then I'm game to trade him. Just don't trade him in some ####ty quantity for quality deal. Make sure you get fair equal value back in what is a close to 1 for 1 trade. Just don't go make a trade where we get a 2nd line winger, a 2nd round pick, and a prospect back, because that won't make us a better team.

[Calgary4LIfe]

This team doesn't need to trade Hamilton - or even Brodie. This team just needs to play a better system, and I am hopeful that Peters can turn this team around by doing exactly that. The strength of this team is in the defence. Outside of maybe Stone, I would hate any moves being made on defence, unless of course the returns were outstanding.

I think this team has the horses to play better defence. I think they have the horses to pot a lot more goals in the net too.

Everyone on this board has seen Brodie become an absolute elite defencemen, and maintain that play for a very long stretch. I think confidence and a system that doesn't play to his (or most of the other D for that matter) strengths.

Hamilton does take the odd lazy penalty. He does lose his man in the defensive zone sometimes. He isn't perfect. What he is, however, is damn good.

Any talk of trading Giordano is foolhardy. He is not only the captain, but he does an awesome job of setting the tones in practices and on the ice, and he brings a tonne to the organization through his charities. Aside from that, I rank him solidly in the top 5 in the NHL for defencemen. That's how many D I think are possibly better than Giordano at BOTH ends of the rink. He is a fricken rock defensively, and he is so good at moving the puck up and generating offence. He even has a really nice shot. Top 5 in my books, and I think he is worth keeping around to pass on his knowledge to the rest of the defence. Having someone on the team that is that good all over the ice - someone that responsible in his own end - that valuable to the development of the other D. He is the last D I trade, age be damned.