R2 - Series Thread - Golden Knights (P1) vs Sharks (P3)

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

lol, what does that prove?

Nothing except I was wrong. Me and about a million other people.

The deck was obviously stacked or they wouldn't have put up 109 points and secured a spot in the western conference final. They won 51 games this year! The last (and ONLY) time the Flames won 50+ was 1989 FFS!

The team is too good, obviously.
The rules were too loose, obviously.

They poached too many good players from teams that worked hard to acquire those players and are now reaping the benefits, and it's a joke.

No kidding, why does it matter what anyone thought last summer? Opinions aren't allowed to change on here apparently.

Draft rules were obviously too easy

People keep joking/cryin' that the Knights have more playoff wins than the Flames in a decade. Guess what, they have more playoff wins than 13 teams (almost half the league) in the last decade. Its ridiculous.

Also I'm hearing they won't lose a player with Seattle expansion? WTF is that bull####

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by dino7c

No kidding, why does it matter what anyone thought last summer? Opinions aren't allowed to change on here apparently.

Draft rules were obviously too easy

People keep joking/cryin' that the Knights have more playoff wins than the Flames in a decade. Guess what, they have more playoff wins than 13 teams (almost half the league) in the last decade. Its ridiculous.

Also I'm hearing they won't lose a player with Seattle expansion? WTF is that bull####

Its cute you think that someone would pay the amounts Vegas and Seattle will have paid for terrible draft rules and to likely have a team that is awful for a few years.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by dino7c

No kidding, why does it matter what anyone thought last summer? Opinions aren't allowed to change on here apparently.

Draft rules were obviously too easy

People keep joking/cryin' that the Knights have more playoff wins than the Flames in a decade. Guess what, they have more playoff wins than 13 teams (almost half the league) in the last decade. Its ridiculous.

Also I'm hearing they won't lose a player with Seattle expansion? WTF is that bull####

Maybe the other GMs are for the most part incompetent and Vegas would still be fine even with tighter rules . Teams gave them their best players to NOT select guys . These same players would have been unprotected

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Corral

While the media and the team's PR like to say this is still having an impact now, the team is beating its opponents with skill and precision and top notch goaltending.

Of course they are, but it would be a mistake to undersell how much mileage the Knights continue to get from how their season began. The Vegas shooting had a massive effect on solidifying the players' together as a group, and their place within the community. That foundation is something they have been able to draw on all year.

If there is an intangible at work here - it is because they a group of guys who have a chip on their shoulder as castoffs from the rest of the league (players and coach).

I am sure this has played a part, but also believe it is disingenuous to downplay one circumstance for the other. Especially in the light of how players and coaches alike have talked about how much the Vegas shooting impacted the team in October.

i didn't watch much of Vegas this season, but from what i've seen in the playoffs - the Flames had better up their game substantially if they expect to compete for 1st in the pacific next year.

EVERY team plays differently in the playoffs than they do in the regular season; it is unfair to draw comparisons between how one team played all year and how a different team is performing in the post season.

The Flames were competitive all year until their season fell apart in late February. I expect that to continue next season.

[rohara66]

The draft rules weren't too easy, their team is full of third liners (outside a couple 'star' players).

The Knights are a good team for several reasons but the main ones being:

- They lucked out on William Karlsson. McPhee has admitted they lucked out on this pick. Nobody knew he was going to score 40+ goals. Not to mention Columbus also gave Vegas other assets and a salary dump to take him.

- Florida really botched the expansion draft. Here take Marchessault and Smith... oh yea you can have Gallant too! Vegas got a little lucky with the success of Smith but most people thought Marchessault should have been protected.

- Gallant is a really good coach.

- The entire team is motivated to give'r hell literally every single shift of every single game. Watching their relentless fore check is pure craziness.

- They've received great goal tending all season long.

Will they replicate it next season, who knows. But I can't see them falling into the basement anytime soon.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Its cute you think that someone would pay the amounts Vegas and Seattle will have paid for terrible draft rules and to likely have a team that is awful for a few years.

Whats the point of this?

Vegas was a done deal before the draft rules were set...you think they would have backed out lol

Not saying they should go back to the old rules but to compare them to past expansion teams is stupid.

No #### they are the best ever...they weren't picking from AHL rosters. They got a top 5 goalie (maybe #1 overall right now) for christ sakes

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Whats the point of this?

Vegas was a done deal before the draft rules were set...you think they would have backed out lol

Not saying they should go back to the old rules but to compare them to past expansion teams is stupid.

No #### they are the best ever...they weren't picking from AHL rosters. They got a top 5 goalie (maybe #1 overall right now) for christ sakes

You complain as though it is unfair or that the league owes its existing teams something. They don't and its a business and they wanted as much money from expansion as possible.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Weitz

You complain as though it is unfair or that the league owes its existing teams something. They don't and its a business and they wanted as much money from expansion as possible.

It is unfair.

Every other ####ing team has to build slowly and gradually through the NHL entry draft. Some suck at it, some are impatient, some do it really well. But that's how you do it, then you augment it with some free agent signings and trades.

These pricks got to have a 109 point conference finalist right out of the gate because the draft rules were obviously way too goddamn lenient.

[MoneyGuy]

nm

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

It is unfair.

Every other ####ing team has to build slowly and gradually through the NHL entry draft. Some suck at it, some are impatient, some do it really well. But that's how you do it, then you augment it with some free agent signings and trades.

These pricks got to have a 109 point conference finalist right out of the gate because the draft rules were obviously way too goddamn lenient.

But the NHL is in the business of making money. Not being fair or having every team make the playoffs or win the cup.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Weitz

But the NHL is in the business of making money. Not being fair or having every team make the playoffs or win the cup.

I didn't say every team should make the playoffs or win the cup. What they should have is an even playing field to build their teams and not have overly lenient expansion rules lead to an expansion team being gifted a top 5 team right out of the gate.

The ones that draft and develop well, and build a team properly will always have more success. If they wanted to give them an advantage, they should have just given them an extra 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick in every draft for the 1st three years of their existence. And then allowed the other NHL teams to protect more of their assets that they'd built up instead of being pillaged by the new comer.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

It is unfair.

Every other ####ing team has to build slowly and gradually through the NHL entry draft. Some suck at it, some are impatient, some do it really well. But that's how you do it, then you augment it with some free agent signings and trades.

These pricks got to have a 109 point conference finalist right out of the gate because the draft rules were obviously way too goddamn lenient.

This is such revisionist history, it's not even funny. At the beginning of the season, EVERYONE thought Vegas was going to finish 31st out of 31 teams. Now that they're actually making some noise, people are getting pissy because they think they had an easy draft.

At the end of the day, Vegas has surpassed everybody's expectations, and I'm damn glad I get to watch them make history.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

This is such revisionist history, it's not even funny. At the beginning of the season, EVERYONE thought Vegas was going to finish 31st out of 31 teams. Now that they're actually making some noise, people are getting pissy because they think they had an easy draft.

At the end of the day, Vegas has surpassed everybody's expectations, and I'm damn glad I get to watch them make history.

I've already addressed this type of comment.

Exactly. Most people thought that (including ME), and as it turns out we were all really, really wrong.

That doesn't make it right or any less of a joke.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by dino7c

No kidding, why does it matter what anyone thought last summer? Opinions aren't allowed to change on here apparently.

Draft rules were obviously too easy

People keep joking/cryin' that the Knights have more playoff wins than the Flames in a decade. Guess what, they have more playoff wins than 13 teams (almost half the league) in the last decade. Its ridiculous.

Also I'm hearing they won't lose a player with Seattle expansion? WTF is that bull####

Panthers left 30 goal scorer on an ELC unprotected so isn't that their own fault? Reilly Smith was acquired for a 4th round pick from the Panthers which had nothing to do with the draft. The Penguins actually threw in a 2020 2nd round pick for Columbus to take Fleury's contract (this rather than accept a trade offer from the Flames). The Blue Jackets protected Brandon Dubinsky over Karlsson. Honestly if anything this draft proved how teams have a difficult time accessing and developing the talent in their own systems. I simply feel the NHL has a management problem in that too many GM's aren't very good at their jobs.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

It is unfair.

Every other ####ing team has to build slowly and gradually through the NHL entry draft. Some suck at it, some are impatient, some do it really well. But that's how you do it, then you augment it with some free agent signings and trades.

These pricks got to have a 109 point conference finalist right out of the gate because the draft rules were obviously way too goddamn lenient.

You weren't saying those things during the draft or during last summer. Everyone and their dog thought Vegas was going to finish near the bottom of the west.

They caught lightning in a bottle and are now excelling. No one thought a guy with 18 career goals in 185 games would all of a sudden score 43 goals. Is the NHL responsible for the fact that the Panthers chose to protect Petrovic instead of Marchessault?

Vegas got lucky, and the draft rules were not lenient at all. Saying otherwise is disingenuous.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Panthers left 30 goal scorer on an ELC unprotected so isn't that their own fault? Reilly Smith was acquired for a 4th round pick from the Panthers which had nothing to do with the draft. The Penguins actually threw in a 2020 2nd round pick for Columbus to take Fleury's contract (this rather than accept a trade offer from the Flames). The Blue Jackets protected Brandon Dubinsky over Karlsson. Honestly if anything this draft proved how teams have a difficult time accessing and developing the talent in their own systems. I simply feel the NHL has a management problem in that too many GM's aren't very good at their jobs.

Most GM's prioritize keeping their job/being able to get other jobs rather than taking risks to hopefully have a better chance at winning. This is prevalent in most sports,

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Most GM's prioritize keeping their job/being able to get other jobs rather than taking risks to hopefully have a better chance at winning. This is prevalent in most sports,

In the NFL the majority of GM's were previously scouts, the next group is lawyers, and there's exactly two ex-players that are GM's and one is only in his 2nd year. In the NHL it seems that way too many ex-players become GM's without putting in their dues. A lot of them simply aren't good enough talent evaluators. The NHL would do better to graduate more scouts rather than fast track players into management roles as seems to be the norm in this league.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

This is such revisionist history, it's not even funny. At the beginning of the season, EVERYONE thought Vegas was going to finish 31st out of 31 teams. Now that they're actually making some noise, people are getting pissy because they think they had an easy draft.

At the end of the day, Vegas has surpassed everybody's expectations, and I'm damn glad I get to watch them make history.

Do you realize you're only commenting on what people thought, and no one has tried to "revise history" on that front. Whether the rules for the expansion draft were too lenient, or not, has nothing to do with how people projected LV's season. Those are the opinions changing here, not some immutable fact like you suggest.

[Bandwagon Surfer]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I didn't say every team should make the playoffs or win the cup. What they should have is an even playing field to build their teams and not have overly lenient expansion rules lead to an expansion team being gifted a top 5 team right out of the gate.

The ones that draft and develop well, and build a team properly will always have more success. If they wanted to give them an advantage, they should have just given them an extra 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick in every draft for the 1st three years of their existence. And then allowed the other NHL teams to protect more of their assets that they'd built up instead of being pillaged by the new comer.

We need to get beyond the NHL being some type of fair competition and get to the core of what it is, a business.

Fair? Earn it? Build Properly? Even Playing Field? None of that really matters, they are just tools to engage fans and extract their money. At the end of the day, making money is the entire point of the NHL. Nothing else matters. They can deviate from any other principal all they want, the risk is making less money if they end up turning fans off their product. Heck they could go for WWE style scripted games if they want, as long as it brings in more money.

As a consumer of their product, the trouble comes if we lose sight of the fact that we are dealing with a business and expect something more. It is easy to drive ourselves mad if we expect them to behave like something other than a business.

Looking at the Vegas situation. They made a lot of money from expansion fees, they are getting very good ratings from these playoffs, and existing fans are continuing to be engaged in their product. I cannot see how we can characterize their decisions as bad. Maybe there are decisions which could have resulted in more money, but even then we would not be calling it bad, just not as good as they could have been.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

...The NHL would do better to graduate more scouts rather than fast track players into management roles as seems to be the norm in this league.

Bob Murray — 1,008 career NHL games; six years prior front office experience
John Chayka — 0 games
Don Sweeney — 1,115 games; nine years
Jason Botterill — 481 games; seven years
Brad Treliving — 0 games
Stan Bowman — 0 games
Joe Sakic — 1,378 games; two years
Jarmo Kekäläinen — 55 games
Jim Nill — 524 games; 22 years
Ken Holland — 4 games
Peter Chiarelli — 0 games
Dale Tallon — 642 games; seven years
Rob Blake — 1,270 games; four years
Marc Bergevin — 1,191 games; four years
David Poile — 0 games
Ray Shero — 0 games
Garth Snow — 368 games; 0 years
Jeff Gorton — 0 games
Pierre Dorion — 0 games
Ron Hextall — 608 games; 14 years
Jim Rutherford — 457 games; who knows?
Doug Wilson — 1,024 games; ten years
Doug Armstron — 0 games
Steve Yzerman —1,514 games; four years
Jim Benning — 610 games; 20 years
George McPhee — 115 games
Brian MacLellan — 606 games; 13 years
Kevin Cheveldayoff — 0 games

Ten NHL general managers have never played a single NHL game, and another three have played less than 150. Of the former career players who are current GMs, only two have entered their positions with less than two years prior front-office experience, and another three with less than seven.

I don't think either one of your assertions is correct. It seems too me that the NHL employs a relatively high number of former scouts and non-players in executive ranks, and it also seems that "fast tracking" former players into executive roles is fairly uncommon.