2017/2018 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[sketchyt]

I've spent some time with Dougie Hamilton. The amount of charity work he does that doesn't make it to the media/press is fairly lengthy. If he's got character issues, I'd like more of it.

[CliffFletcher]

Character issues can mean a lot of things. For example, a player could give his time generously to charities, and not love hockey enough to want to play in the World Championships. Or he could be liked by his teammates off the ice, but frustrate coaches with his unwillingness to play hard without the puck.

[GioforPM]

Teams never win by trading a good or great player for a package of other players. The only example I can think of is the Lindros trade and that's because the Flyers undervalued Forsberg and Ricci and because Lindros ended up with concussion issues. And even there, the trade opnly happened because there was literally no choice.

People who are advocating this move are often, if you dig into their posts, thinking that Brodie can take over the top pairing spot. The problem with that is, even at his best, Brodie wasn't as good offensively as Hamilton and he was worse defensively. I also am unconvinced that simply switching sides is going to bring his game back.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Character issues can mean a lot of things. For example, a player could give his time generously to charities, and not love hockey enough to want to play in the World Championships. Or he could be liked by his teammates off the ice, but frustrate coaches with his unwillingness to play hard without the puck.

This is a fair statement IMO.

If you hear he has character issues or "is different" that doesn't mean he's a jerk or isn't well liked by his team. It likely means there is something that the coach/management isn't happy with and that is more likely to do with what happens on the ice rather than off.

I would also think that if there are concerns with Hamilton from Flames management they are probably different than the concerns Boston had with him.

What can't be ignored is that his name is popping up and while that could simply be a product of the Flames needing to bolster their forwards ranks by leveraging their defensive depth (and he is their top defenseman, capable of the biggest return), I don't think it should be completely dismissed.

Edit - My personal opinion (just so I don't get piled on) is that no, I don't want to see him moved. He produces and if there is concern over his defensive ability we need only look at his partner and their stats to see that he's just fine in that spot. But there is smoke, and it makes for interesting discussion/debate.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Who questioned his offensive abilities? Who said he's not a good offensive player?

From what I'm reading it's the other areas of his game that people wonder about.

The guy who said he was only 21st in Dman scoring...if the Flames had better forwards he would be way up on that chart. Fact is the Flames didn't score many goals.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Diemenz

They tried 3 different contacts to get him signed. I guess those “character issues” didn’t bother them when they were trying to sign him.

I once had a job in lloydminster which I enjoyed for two years then I started disliking the area. I took a job in Calgary because I wanted to give this location a try and being young and unattached at the time I wanted to try something new and thought it would better suit my future plans. I guess I must have character issues because I didn’t see myself living in lloydminster the rest of my life.

How about we make a list of players who moved in their RFA years and discuss their character issues, because after all them making a decision to not stay with the team must mean they have issues because there is no other possible reason to move.

Jeezuz...i never said anything different, but when he did what he did...the whole thing is going to follow him around. I still dont understand why it has never been addressed myself.

I dont know nor do i even speculate what happened in Boston, but it will always be out there. I dont have a feeling one way or another but to dismiss it entirely is just as dumb as saying it is completely character issues.

It's just how it goes with pro athletes and those are the parameters he lives under regardless if he is a Flame or anyone else.

here is an article from his return to Boston the following season...and even then it states he wanted out but never really explains why.

there is a reason and whatever that reason is, without clarification there will always be speculation.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...T1H/story.html

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Teams never win by trading a good or great player for a package of other players. The only example I can think of is the Lindros trade and that's because the Flyers undervalued Forsberg and Ricci and because Lindros ended up with concussion issues. And even there, the trade opnly happened because there was literally no choice.

People who are advocating this move are often, if you dig into their posts, thinking that Brodie can take over the top pairing spot. The problem with that is, even at his best, Brodie wasn't as good offensively as Hamilton and he was worse defensively. I also am unconvinced that simply switching sides is going to bring his game back.

* at his best Brodie scored 45 points in 70 or a 53 point pace. But Dougie’s 50 points in 81 games were better offensively than Brodie’s 45 in 70. Ok.

In 15-16, Brodie was a +4, Gio -5 and Hamilton -14. You are right, he was worse defensively.

Nobody knows what Brodie will do until the new coach is here. We know he pairs well with Gio and Gio isn’t getting any younger. So if the coach has to drop Gio to the second pairing with Brodie, can Dougie be the best player on a top pairing?

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Diemenz

They tried 3 different contacts to get him signed. I guess those “character issues” didn’t bother them when they were trying to sign him.

I once had a job in lloydminster which I enjoyed for two years then I started disliking the area. I took a job in Calgary because I wanted to give this location a try and being young and unattached at the time I wanted to try something new and thought it would better suit my future plans. I guess I must have character issues because I didn’t see myself living in lloydminster the rest of my life.

How about we make a list of players who moved in their RFA years and discuss their character issues, because after all them making a decision to not stay with the team must mean they have issues because there is no other possible reason to move.

To me that would be a pretty short list.

There is a large list of arbitration cases filed that all are resolved pre-arbitration with agreement with the team that holds the players rights.

Not trying to be snarky but there are not a lot of established players that move in their RFA years, and even fewer that reject the team that drafted them.

I'll start

Trouba in Winnipeg apparently wanted to move (at least gave the excuse that the Jets had too many RD) and held out but came back signed his bridge deal and has been a solid player since.

Seth Jones out of Nashville where he said all the right things about being happy in Nashville

Gaudreau held out for more money

Bennett (or his agent) talked about going to Europe but no sign that he wanted to be traded to another NHL team

---

I ask again:

Was there ever any rationale provided as to why Hamilton wanted out of Boston?

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

What if they just pull a swap of good young blue liners?

Like Hamilton for Ristolainen for example?

Who adds in that scenario, if anyone?

Hamilton for Ristolainen and Nylander?

I think that Buffalo would want more than Hamilton for Ristolainen. He is putting up 40 points a year playing with Scandella. He has Pronger upside as he seems to enjoy knocking people over. He is their #1D and plays in all situations.

Scandella is a really close comparable to Hamonic.

Put Hamilton out with Scandella instead of Gio and how many points would he get?

[Ashasx]

What?

This forum complains so much about Hamilton's defensive play. It would go insane to watch Ristolainen play.

There is no facet of the game where Hamilton isn't better than Ristolainen.

Offence, defence, skating, potential. This forum is just dumb right now.

[TheScorpion]

Sure, let's get rid of Dougie "character issues" Hamilton and instead keep good character guys like Brouwer, Hamonic, Lazar, and Stajan around.

Hey guys, why aren't we winning?

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by dino7c

The guy who said he was only 21st in Dman scoring...if the Flames had better forwards he would be way up on that chart. Fact is the Flames didn't score many goals.

Than you and I have a very different opinion about what questioning or criticizing a player is.

What I am clarifying is that yes he scored a good number of goals, but his overall point totals did not make him the top scoring defenceman in the NHL.

I think there is some selective reading that you are using here.

[DeluxeMoustache]

As far as I recall:
Boston had something like 8M in cap space and had to sign Hamilton.
Sweeney said he had made a ‘significant’ offer that Hamilton did not accept
An offer sheet was coming or expected from Chiarelli in Edmonton
Hamilton was traded to Chiarelli’s rival for draft picks that were a bit better than the offer sheet compensation

On the surface, ok, but... he must have wanted out. You find a way to move salary if you have identified a guy as a franchise d man and he wants to stay.

Rumours surfaced that he was unhappy, others that teammates didn’t like him.
There is smoke with the Freddie situation here, ducking the media
There was the good old hot mic rant where someone from CBC said he was stupid - you remember that “you won’t rip Dougie Hamilton but I will ..” then noting the penalty he took was stupid and he was as well

It will be interesting to see what the Flames do. I would be surprised if they moved him, but if they did, boy would Eric Francis write a great column pointing to all that smoke.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

---

I ask again:

Was there ever any rationale provided as to why Hamilton wanted out of Boston?

Does it really matter? If so, why?

Bottom line is that the Flames acquired a freaking STUD top pairing RH D, who is now 24 and still improving offensively and defensively, in an excellent trade.

His offensive stats would and will be considerably better when the Flames become a better offensive and PP team.

Try to show some objectivity and open up your pessimistic and cynical narrative, when it comes to Hamilton.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

* at his best Brodie scored 45 points in 70 or a 53 point pace. But Dougie’s 50 points in 81 games were better offensively than Brodie’s 45 in 70. Ok.

In 15-16, Brodie was a +4, Gio -5 and Hamilton -14. You are right, he was worse defensively.

Nobody knows what Brodie will do until the new coach is here. We know he pairs well with Gio and Gio isn’t getting any younger. So if the coach has to drop Gio to the second pairing with Brodie, can Dougie be the best player on a top pairing?

a. Brodie has always had PP time, even this year, in excess of Hamilton. Put Hamilton on the first unit full time and he will score even more.

b. Brodie has cracked 10 goals once. To me, total points are a lesser indicator of offence, because of secondary assists, etc. Hamilton is a top level scoring defenceman.

c. Are you really relying on plus/minus in 2015-16? You mean where a 21 year old Hamilton first came in and had to play with a new team (and admittedly struggled off the bat, which you can see by noting that his minus is inflated due to his October stats), when Calgary sucked even worse than this year, and when he played much tougher matchups than Brodie? Are you saying Brodie is better defensively than Gio, too, since Gio was a minus that year? Hamilton beats Brodie in any deeper defensive statistical analysis, between their best years. Even when Brodie had his best years, he was easily moved off the puck in the defensive zone. Gio did all the heavy lifting.

d. Since we are talking about now versus 2015-16, I guess by your analysis Hamilton is better, since he was a plus player (the only D to be one).

e. We know that anyone pairs well with Gio. That's not the issue. The issue is that Hamilton/Gio is better than Brodie/Gio. The other issue is - would putting Brodie back with Gio (or on the rioght seide period) even get Brodie back on track? To me he looked slower and made more mental mistakes the last two years and the mistakes would have been made with or without Gio as his partner.

[Nelson]

Roof-Daddy just gave me the idea of trying to pick up Nic Petan. He is 23 and hasn't become an NHL regular, which is generally a bad sign, but it might be because the Jets pipeline is so deep.

I think he might be exactly the kind of option we could use in our bottom 6. He is fast and skilled. He scored over a 100 points twice in Portland, 52 points in 52 games last year and 32 points in 47 games in 15-16 in the AHL, and 13 points in 54 games in the NHL in 16-17. The NHL total is not great.

However, Petan was 11th in ice time on the Jets that year. He also had a 3% SH% that year. I think he might be worth a shot.

[Husky]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

a. Brodie has always had PP time, even this year, in excess of Hamilton. Put Hamilton on the first unit full time and he will score even more.

b. Brodie has cracked 10 goals once. To me, total points are a lesser indicator of offence, because of secondary assists, etc. Hamilton is a top level scoring defenceman.

c. Are you really relying on plus/minus in 2015-16? You mean where a 21 year old Hamilton first came in and had to play with a new team (and admittedly struggled off the bat, which you can see by noting that his minus is inflated due to his October stats), when Calgary sucked even worse than this year, and when he played much tougher matchups than Brodie? Are you saying Brodie is better defensively than Gio, too, since Gio was a minus that year? Hamilton beats Brodie in any deeper defensive statistical analysis, between their best years. Even when Brodie had his best years, he was easily moved off the puck in the defensive zone. Gio did all the heavy lifting.

d. Since we are talking about now versus 2015-16, I guess by your analysis Hamilton is better, since he was a plus player (the only D to be one).

e. We know that anyone pairs well with Gio. That's not the issue. The issue is that Hamilton/Gio is better than Brodie/Gio. The other issue is - would putting Brodie back with Gio (or on the rioght seide period) even get Brodie back on track? To me he looked slower and made more mental mistakes the last two years and the mistakes would have been made with or without Gio as his partner.

Unfortunately I do not think Brodie will ever be the same player. I think the health of his wife will forever impact his play.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Was there ever any rationale provided as to why Hamilton wanted out of Boston?

Probably got licked a few times, I'm only half joking.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

a. Brodie has always had PP time, even this year, in excess of Hamilton. Put Hamilton on the first unit full time and he will score even more.

b. Brodie has cracked 10 goals once. To me, total points are a lesser indicator of offence, because of secondary assists, etc. Hamilton is a top level scoring defenceman.

c. Are you really relying on plus/minus in 2015-16? You mean where a 21 year old Hamilton first came in and had to play with a new team (and admittedly struggled off the bat, which you can see by noting that his minus is inflated due to his October stats), when Calgary sucked even worse than this year, and when he played much tougher matchups than Brodie? Are you saying Brodie is better defensively than Gio, too, since Gio was a minus that year? Hamilton beats Brodie in any deeper defensive statistical analysis, between their best years. Even when Brodie had his best years, he was easily moved off the puck in the defensive zone. Gio did all the heavy lifting.

d. Since we are talking about now versus 2015-16, I guess by your analysis Hamilton is better, since he was a plus player (the only D to be one).

e. We know that anyone pairs well with Gio. That's not the issue. The issue is that Hamilton/Gio is better than Brodie/Gio. The other issue is - would putting Brodie back with Gio (or on the rioght seide period) even get Brodie back on track? To me he looked slower and made more mental mistakes the last two years and the mistakes would have been made with or without Gio as his partner.

Lots of points. Many fair. At the same time, any arguments that declare Hamilton to be so much better than peak Brodie have asterisks.

Gio with Brodie was a 60 point pace guy, with Hamilton the last 2 years 39. Is it worth having Gio stay home and put up 39 points so Hamilton can put up 44? (I know that is disingenuous as Gulutzan’s coaching was inferior. )

I saw Brodie as uncomfortable with d partners other than Gio the last 2 years and was underwhelmed by Hamonic

All I know for sure is that Gio can carry a pairing, we agree on that, and both Brodie and Hamilton can benefit from it. And can be in the conversation for best pairing in the league.

I have seen Brodie be very good with Engelland (and a system that suits his strengths). I have not seen Hamilton be great outside of being partnered with Gio. I also think that Engelland is better than Hamonic

So to me the question is not simply
Gio-Hamilton vs Gio-Brodie

It is
Gio-Hamilton and Brodie-x vs.
Gio-Brodie and Hamilton-x


I also have the concerns about whether Brodie has simply lost his mojo but think a good coach can help out.

[Vinny01]

It is funny that the names being talked about are Bennett and Hamilton. Imo the Flames wouldn’t have any reason to move Hamilton if Bennett planned out the way we hoped/expected.

Imo the Flames are desperately missing another elite offensive piece be thst a centre or wing. Gaudreau-Monahan-Tkachuk are nice guys to build around but they need another in that age range to take a step and maintain it for years to come.

If Bennett was a 30 goal 60pt centre like Monahan I don’t think this team is nearly as hurting for scoring or depth as they appear now.

The only piece on the backend that can get the Flames that top end forward is Hamilton. Of course we would all prefer to trade Brodie for Nylander or Marner but Brodie gets us Pacioretty or Hoffman. Guys that we could use next year but likely not long term fits. Hamilton might be able to get the Flames Nylander, Marner, Tkachuk+, Stone etc.

I don’t think there are many in here that are stating we have to subtract Dougie because he has character issues, or is bad defensively. I think people thst question those are just not convinced he is the future franchise number 1 that some people believe him to be.