Francis: Treliving filled with disappointment, anger after team's collapse

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It should also be noted that Gulutzan has a track record of having his teams fall off a cliff at the end of seasons. The system doesn't get better, it gets easier to play against because other teams adapt and he doesn't.

Well this is pulled from thin air. First year in Dallas, the stars had one of the top second halves in the league and had a shot at the playoffs after a disastrous start. Last year, the flames made the playoffs on the back of a strong second half.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

How the hell does Sean Monahan not fit into any "tier"? I didn't read the article, but what am I missing?

You should read the article.

Somebody has created a metric called Game Score. The intent is to determine a player’s contribution to the game

https://hockey-graphs.com/2016/07/13...to-game-score/

The stats used are goals, primary assists, secondary assists, shots on goal, blocked shots, penalty differential, faceoffs, 5-on-5 corsi differential, 5-on-5 goal differential

Player Game Score = (0.75 * G) + (0.7 * A1) + (0.55 * A2) + (0.075 * SOG) + (0.05 * BLK) + (0.15 * PD) – (0.15 * PT) + (0.01 * FOW) – (0.01 * FOL) + (0.05 * CF) – (0.05 * CA) + (0.15 * GF) – (0.15* GA)

Then the tiers in the article are being better than x% of the rest of the league at that metric

(Understood if you didn’t want to look it up, research isn’t everyone’s thing).

^
Obviously that is a joke

[Vinny01]

Francis teased on the FAN yesterday that he is debating writing an article to expose the players that he thinks are “lacking character/emotional investment”

I am furious about this season but I am not excited for the summer as I do believe there will be significant change.

Ideally the best way to improve the bottom 6 is slide Backlund and Frolik down to the 3rd line. In order for that to happen Jankowski needs to take a big step forward or the Flames look to acquire a 2nd line centre like RoR.

The Flames also only have 2 left top 6 wingers in Gaudreau and Tkachuk. How will they add 2 top 6 RW? They might dip into free agency on a guy like David Perron. Perhaps they trade Brodie or Hamilton for the top line RW?

They will then probably have to dip into free agency to add some defensive depth. I believe Smith-Rittich will be fine to return with for one more year.

If they make thee moves and get a legit head coach we can get excited about the team again

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

So, what is your solution? As I read this I can't help but imagine your preference would be for the Flames to conduct business in a more adversarial environment, similar to the toxic Trump Organization.

[/I]
First of all, spell his name right. Second, this is a HUGE reach from the contents of an intermission interview. I did not see it, but was Hamonic responding to questions, or did he rather decide to ignore the interviewer and proceed with his own agenda? Interview time is controlled by the interviewer, and NOT the player.

If it is the same interview I'm thinking of, I believe he's referring to the fact that on his way back to the room Ferland stopped and made funny faces behind Hamonic and Travis kind of chuckled.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Francis teased on the FAN yesterday that he is debating writing an article to expose the players that he thinks are “lacking character/emotional investment”

I am furious about this season but I am not excited for the summer as I do believe there will be significant change.

Ideally the best way to improve the bottom 6 is slide Backlund and Frolik down to the 3rd line. In order for that to happen Jankowski needs to take a big step forward or the Flames look to acquire a 2nd line centre like RoR.

The Flames also only have 2 left top 6 wingers in Gaudreau and Tkachuk. How will they add 2 top 6 RW? They might dip into free agency on a guy like David Perron. Perhaps they trade Brodie or Hamilton for the top line RW?

They will then probably have to dip into free agency to add some defensive depth. I believe Smith-Rittich will be fine to return with for one more year.

If they make thee moves and get a legit head coach we can get excited about the team again

Loubardias spoke about the Flames looking at RoR this past week. Wonder if a package around Brodie & Jankowski could get the ball rolling.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

You should read the article.

Somebody has created a metric called Game Score. The intent is to determine a player’s contribution to the game

https://hockey-graphs.com/2016/07/13...to-game-score/

The stats used are goals, primary assists, secondary assists, shots on goal, blocked shots, penalty differential, faceoffs, 5-on-5 corsi differential, 5-on-5 goal differential



Then the tiers in the article are being better than x% of the rest of the league at that metric

(Understood if you didn’t want to look it up, research isn’t everyone’s thing).

^
Obviously that is a joke

Thanks. It still seems bizarre to me that Monahan would not rank ANYWHERE in the set five tiers simply by virtue of the heavy-weights afforded to goals (0.75), #1 assists (0.7) and #2 assists (0.55). All three of those categories are weighted MUCH more heavily than the rest.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Major Major

Well this is pulled from thin air. First year in Dallas, the stars had one of the top second halves in the league and had a shot at the playoffs after a disastrous start. Last year, the flames made the playoffs on the back of a strong second half.

And then dropped precipitously in the last 0 to 12 games and the playoffs.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I also stated that they need more talent. But there is a narrative that this team woefully lacks talent, and it is patently false IMO.

And you're right, they have yet to show any sustained level of elite play. But that fact can be the result of any number of issues, including lack of talent, bad systems/coaching, lack of intestinal fortitude, or whatever one thinks is the problem. In all likelihood, a combination of all.

No one is saying it's all on the coaches.

But the simple fact of the matter is that if the team is playing poorly, for whatever reason, it is dangerous to evaluate the players in that environment, because they are all going to look worse than they are.

You need to fix the systems problem first. You need to fix the coaching problem, because it is the easiest to fix, and because it affects everything else.

Then, in a proper environment, and under a better light, you can more accurately assess the individual players.

It isn't JUST coaching. But coaching affects everything and we can't be sure of anything else until we fix the first thing.

Edit: also, what Testcritic said

Woefully lacks talent is an example of using extreme language to paint others positions.

Can the existing team be better with a different coaching staff? I am confident the answer is yes.

Are the existing players good enough to win a championship? There is no evidence to support that they are. I am of the opinion the answer is a strong hell no.

I think some of the anger directed towards GG should be aimed at management for trading so many draft picks for bottom of the roster players which has compromised this teams ability to acquire more top end talent. Meanwhile it seems to be accepted the bottom of the roster is awful.

I also don’t mind if management wants to see how the team looks with a new coach before making major moves. Treliving said he wants to build from the goalie out. Maybe he shouldn’t let this seasons abysmal failure alter his approach.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Loubardias spoke about the Flames looking at RoR this past week. Wonder if a package around Brodie & Jankowski could get the ball rolling.

I definitely think of the Flames were to look at upgrading centre Jankowski would be going the other way. He is a Sabres fan as well and fits their age timeline a little better.

To Flames: RoR
To Sabres: Jankowski, Gillies, Ferland

To Leafs: Hamilton
To Flames: Nylander+ 2018 1st

Sign David Perron to a 3 year $3.5M deal

Gaudreau-Monahan-Nylander
Tkachuk-O’Rielly-Perron
Bennett-Backlund-Frolik
Mangiapane-Dube/Vet-Lazar

Giordano-Brodie
UFA/Kulak-Hamonic
Kulak/Valimaki-Stone/Andersson

Smith
Rittich


The forward depth looks amazing but I believe they would want to address the second pairing D as Kulak is probably not ready but Valimaki might be?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Francis teased on the FAN yesterday that he is debating writing an article to expose the players that he thinks are “lacking character/emotional investment”

I am furious about this season but I am not excited for the summer as I do believe there will be significant change.

Ideally the best way to improve the bottom 6 is slide Backlund and Frolik down to the 3rd line. In order for that to happen Jankowski needs to take a big step forward or the Flames look to acquire a 2nd line centre like RoR.

The Flames also only have 2 left top 6 wingers in Gaudreau and Tkachuk. How will they add 2 top 6 RW? They might dip into free agency on a guy like David Perron. Perhaps they trade Brodie or Hamilton for the top line RW?

They will then probably have to dip into free agency to add some defensive depth. I believe Smith-Rittich will be fine to return with for one more year.

If they make thee moves and get a legit head coach we can get excited about the team again

I sure hope he doesn't release such an article. Given how two years ago he was telling us how it was a done deal that Boudreau was going to be the next Flames coach he's proven his judgement and knowledge of what's going on behind the scenes is no better than a fan. All he would be doing with his clickbait article at this stage is making things worse as uneducated fans reading the article may believe those players are cancers when it's based on an uneducated opinion and nothing more.

[Enoch Root]

'Woefully lacks talent' accurately reflects some of the posts on here, IMO. The post I quoted used the lack of goals to argue that THE problem is a lack of talent. I made an argument to dispute that. And I was very measured in doing so, including stating that I think they need more talent.

Really not sure why you continue to quote me. You're trying to take argument with a stance that I have not taken.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I sure hope he doesn't release such an article. Given how two years ago he was telling us how it was a done deal that Boudreau was going to be the next Flames coach he's proven his judgement and knowledge of what's going on behind the scenes is no better than a fan. All he would be doing with his clickbait article at this stage is making things worse as uneducated fans reading the article may believe those players are cancers when it's based on an uneducated opinion and nothing more.

The reason he seemed to be debating it was because he has to go into that room and face the guys. He calls out a players character and they are in the room next year his job could become more difficult.

This season went far off the rails and Treliving publicly questioned the emotional
Investment of the team. I believe the coach and at least 1 core player and semi core player is moved this summer

[Camronius]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

.

Ideally the best way to improve the bottom 6 is slide Backlund and Frolik down to the 3rd line. In order for that to happen Jankowski needs to take a big step forward or the Flames look to acquire a 2nd line centre like RoR.

You and I agree 100% on this. I literally just wrote the same thing in another thread. 2nd line stud center is the answer here. Love backs, however when we can confidently slide him and frolik down to the 3rd pair is when we contend.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The reason he seemed to be debating it was because he has to go into that room and face the guys. He calls out a players character and they are in the room next year his job could become more difficult.

This season went far off the rails and Treliving publicly questioned the emotional
Investment of the team. I believe the coach and at least 1 core player and semi core player is moved this summer

This is getting overplayed IMO. The Hawks season went off the rails so does that mean a roster full of players that have won cups all of a sudden don't have what it takes? Bad seasons happen and when mixed with a below average coaching staff you should never jump to conclusions about what you have in regards to talent and character on your roster. Take a look at Taylor Hall's turnaround to see what coaches and team culture can do.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Woefully lacks talent is an example of using extreme language to paint others positions.

Can the existing team be better with a different coaching staff? I am confident the answer is yes.

Are the existing players good enough to win a championship? There is no evidence to support that they are. I am of the opinion the answer is a strong hell no.

I think some of the anger directed towards GG should be aimed at management for trading so many draft picks for bottom of the roster players which has compromised this teams ability to acquire more top end talent. Meanwhile it seems to be accepted the bottom of the roster is awful.

I also don’t mind if management wants to see how the team looks with a new coach before making major moves. Treliving said he wants to build from the goalie out. Maybe he shouldn’t let this seasons abysmal failure alter his approach.

What is this narrative that you're spinning that the Flames traded so many picks for the bottom of the roster? The only player in the bottom 6 or bottom pairing that they traded picks for is Lazar. And the 2017 2nd round pick they traded for him would not be impacting the NHL teams roster this season at all, and even in a best case scenario for that pick, it wouldn't be impacting the NHL roster for a few years yet.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It should also be noted that Gulutzan has a track record of having his teams fall off a cliff at the end of seasons. The system doesn't get better, it gets easier to play against because other teams adapt and he doesn't.

This isn’t true at all. In fact, after the miserable 5-10-1 start last season where the team was adapting to the new system, the team went 40-23-3. They were a top 10 team after October and were a top 5 defensive team in terms of goals allowed.

If this team was so easy to play against as other teams adapt, then how would you explain the 50+ game point streak when the Flames had a lead after 2. If anything, this team showed that they understand the system and actually played it well.

Everyone just needs to face the facts here. This is an incredibly top heavy team that has relied on their 1 or 2 players to carry this organization for 25+ years now. Back in the Fleury days, then the Iggy and Kipper era and now this season with Gaudreau and Smith.

Anyone who doesn’t believe me, just look at the best streches this team had this season and look at what it coincided with. 7 game win streak in January, 13 points in 7 games from Gaudreau. How about that 7-2 stretch in November, 18 points in 9 games from Gaudreau...that 3 game winning streak in October, 7 points in 3 games from Gaudreau and finally that 3 game winning streak in February, 6 points in 3 games from Gaudreau. We win when Smith gives us great goaltending or when Gaudreau carries this team on his back, just like Iggy and Kipper did a decade ago.

The ultimate demise lf this team this year was that the bottom 6 looked like two 4th lines for most of this season and the Backlund line regressed offensively and big time defensively. Thus sadly, the career years of a few players and some key additions just weren’t enough to make up for the deficits and regression.

[Patek23]

I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s JG.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

This isn’t true at all. In fact, after the miserable 5-10-1 start last season where the team was adapting to the new system, the team went 40-23-3. They were a top 10 team after October and were a top 5 defensive team in terms of goals allowed.

Actually it is. The Flames slumped last season going into the playoffs, his Stars teams also slumped towards the end of seasons, and well the end of this season is pretty self explanatory. The records don't lie.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

...I also don’t mind if management wants to see how the team looks with a new coach before making major moves. Treliving said he wants to build from the goalie out. Maybe he shouldn’t let this seasons abysmal failure alter his approach.

Do you think the Flames need an upgrade in goal? I am not convinced. As I see it the goaltending issues are inter-related as follows:

1. Mike Smith played too much. Eddie Lack's terrible play in October coupled with Smith's brilliance created a situation in which the coaches ended up relying far too heavily on him early. However, by the same token and because of how weirdly balanced the early part of the schedule was, it was also difficult to sit Smith on the bench without also having him out-of-action for several days in a row.

2. Smith's injury: This was likely a product of the number of games he had already played in the first two-thirds, and this was also exacerbated by how Rittich responded with a heavier workload, along with the rest of the team behind him. A tonne of what happened with goaltending was psychological, and this leads to perhaps the most critical third point.

3. The home record: On the road, Smith, Rittich and the Flames were excellent. But for whatever reason when Smith played at the Saddledome he did not look great. I felt that about the whole roster, and it really seemed like several of the players were constantly playing inside their own heads.

I think all of these can potentially be resolved without much change to on-ice personnel. It probably has a lot to do with coaching (from my perspective not as much a "systems issue" as it is a "perparation-and-response issue"), but may also have to do with some of the on-ice dynamics between players.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

This is getting overplayed IMO. The Hawks season went off the rails so does that mean a roster full of players that have won cups all of a sudden don't have what it takes? Bad seasons happen and when mixed with a below average coaching staff you should never jump to conclusions about what you have in regards to talent and character on your roster. Take a look at Taylor Hall's turnaround to see what coaches and team culture can do.

The Hawks might not be a good example assuming they lose their minds and dump JQ as has been rumoured. I still have trouble believing they would be that short sighted, but the rumours have been out there for a while.