Francis: Treliving filled with disappointment, anger after team's collapse

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I'm still trying to figure out how Columbus has 3 tier 1 stars.

Bobrovsky
Panarin? (It's a stretch)
Seth Jones??? If Jones is tier 1, why isn't Dougie?

I'd assume it's Werenski.

[Roof-Daddy]

Seth Jones plays 25 minutes a game and had 57 points this year.

He's better than Dougie and a year younger.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by timbit

Bottom line.
The Flames are 28 th in GF with 211
Only Montreal Arizona and Buffalo have scored fewer goals.

That’s a skill issue. Whether lack of ability to finish or straight lack of talent...it is the Flames biggest issue.

To fully understand the problem , Gaudreau , Monahan and Tkachuk , their most talented offensive players all had career years.



“Testicular fortitude” is way down the list of Flame problems.

The Flames were middle of the pack in goals for on Jan 15th, with 129 goals in 45 games, 2.87 GPG. So for just over half the season, they were average offensively, despite the abysmal PP, stifling system, and ridiculous player utilization.

In the last 36 games, they are 31st overall with 80 goals for 2.22 GPG.

If it's all about a lack of talent, then the team had a huge drop-off in talent in the middle of January.

The turning point was, after a very successful eastern road swing, they came home and lost 2-1 to WPG, 2-1 to BUF, and 2-1 to LA. From that moment on, the team has been continually challenged with respect to being ready to play, and with respect to the way they play on home ice.

It might also be because the talent level of the team evaporated at that point, but I personally don't think so.

[Enoch Root]

It should also be noted that Gulutzan has a track record of having his teams fall off a cliff at the end of seasons. The system doesn't get better, it gets easier to play against because other teams adapt and he doesn't.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Pointman

This argument is overrated. People used to say the same about Darryl Sutter before he came back with Kings to n two Cups. Hartley himself had been in Europe before hired by Flames, winning a round and Jack Adams...

Did they? Not from what I recall. D. Sutter was always regarded as a quality coach—even after he and the Flames parted ways.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Did they? Not from what I recall. D. Sutter was always regarded as a quality coach—even after he and the Flames parted ways.

They did

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/7...ed-calculation

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I'm still trying to figure out how Columbus has 3 tier 1 stars.

Bobrovsky
Panarin? (It's a stretch)
Seth Jones??? If Jones is tier 1, why isn't Dougie?

IIRC from when this was originally posted a few months back the author set some parameters, which he openly admitted were arbitrary but his best attempt at creating some sort of definition for each tier. He was quite clear that they wouldn't be perfect.

He then used those established guidelines to create the chart. It wasn't like he just picked his favorites randomly from each team.


EDIT:

Here's the original thread:

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showth...highlight=tier

And the article:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...to-win-the-cup

Now it’s time to see who fits where. Rather than using last year’s numbers, I used projected Game Score for 2017-18 to show what kind of top-end talent teams have going into next season. It’s what we’ve been using for playoff odds and last week’s off-season changes post, so this also works as a check and balance to see if the numbers themselves mostly make sense. While it won’t create a perfect list (no metric or human can), it should make for a reasonable estimate of the league landscape even if there are some disagreements about specific placements (even I don’t 100 percent agree with where some players land, so please don’t yell at me, thanks). It’s also important to remember this is just a projection and players can certainly play better or worse than their tier suggests. Without further adieu, here’s where each of the league’s stars ranks.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The Flames were middle of the pack in goals for on Jan 15th, with 129 goals in 45 games, 2.87 GPG. So for just over half the season, they were average offensively, despite the abysmal PP, stifling system, and ridiculous player utilization.

In the last 36 games, they are 31st overall with 80 goals for 2.22 GPG.

If it's all about a lack of talent, then the team had a huge drop-off in talent in the middle of January.

The turning point was, after a very successful eastern road swing, they came home and lost 2-1 to WPG, 2-1 to BUF, and 2-1 to LA. From that moment on, the team has been continually challenged with respect to being ready to play, and with respect to the way they play on home ice.

It might also be because the talent level of the team evaporated at that point, but I personally don't think so.

Respectfully Enoch, this doesn’t explain away a talent deficit to me. At their best, Flames were middle of the pack. When they needed to be better, they were worse.

We have yet to see this team play at an elite level for any sustained period of time. No doubt coaching is a big factor but I am still of the view this team needs better players.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Oh and Columbus has 3 tier 2 players, not tier 1. Tier 1 is red, they are orange.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Respectfully Enoch, this doesn’t explain away a talent deficit to me. At their best, Flames were middle of the pack. When they needed to be better, they were worse.

I think it goes a long way to explaining the problem. If I understand Enoch correctly he is saying that the team has more to give—even beyond their best from this season, given the abysmal performance on the powerplay.

It is not remotely a stretch. Arguably equally- or slightly-less-talented Flames teams were top-ten in NHL scoring under Bob Hartley. It seems reasonable to suggest that adjustments can be made to dramatically improve scoring for this group.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Interesting analysis in the Athletic about the star power needed to compete for the cup. Based on this analysis Calgary is right up with top teams in terms of star power:



Where they miss is depth:

That chart seems like gobbledy####.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Respectfully Enoch, this doesn’t explain away a talent deficit to me. At their best, Flames were middle of the pack. When they needed to be better, they were worse.

We have yet to see this team play at an elite level for any sustained period of time. No doubt coaching is a big factor but I am still of the view this team needs better players.

I also stated that they need more talent. But there is a narrative that this team woefully lacks talent, and it is patently false IMO.

And you're right, they have yet to show any sustained level of elite play. But that fact can be the result of any number of issues, including lack of talent, bad systems/coaching, lack of intestinal fortitude, or whatever one thinks is the problem. In all likelihood, a combination of all.

No one is saying it's all on the coaches.

But the simple fact of the matter is that if the team is playing poorly, for whatever reason, it is dangerous to evaluate the players in that environment, because they are all going to look worse than they are.

You need to fix the systems problem first. You need to fix the coaching problem, because it is the easiest to fix, and because it affects everything else.

Then, in a proper environment, and under a better light, you can more accurately assess the individual players.

It isn't JUST coaching. But coaching affects everything and we can't be sure of anything else until we fix the first thing.

Edit: also, what Testcritic said

[getbak]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

That chart seems like gobbledy####.

Without context of the criteria used for ranking each category, it pretty much is.

[iamca]

Getting back to Tre, I think this team and organization is too soft, nice, accommodating, etc...

In between periods of the game against Winnipeg was a good example of the lack of focus, intensity, and softness. Anyone that saw the interview with Hamonic would attest to this and the whole vibe around this team, soft, not caring, focused on personal agendas instead of team goals, like winning some games down the stretch, improving the powerplay, players proving themselves for next season, etc...

Don't like the acceptance of being bottom dwellers and it seems like no one is paying attention or cares?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

The fact the reporter was asking the players to grade the toss immeadiatey after shows the reporters weren’t taking it seriously either. It was a big joke to everyone at the rink.

The thought that it was a joke & the players laughed about the stick toss is one of the most blow hardy statements someone could say. Just cause some guys had a chuckle after the fact in front of the cameras gives little credence to this flimsy narrative that the players don't like or respect the coach.

You weren't there on the ice, or in the room beforehand, afterwards, or at any point. You don't know what you don't know.

But let's just say you're right and the players didnt respect or had tuned GG out a little more than a season and a half after he was hired. If that is the case, I would say it reflects much more on the players than the coach. And if that's the true, this team is in big trouble. It won't matter who is coaching.

Bare in mind that it had been reported the players wanted to have a 'players coach'. Hartley' hard ass approach had worn thin. This seasons failure has just as much, or more, to do with the players than it does the coach.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I'm still trying to figure out how Columbus has 3 tier 1 stars.

Bobrovsky
Panarin? (It's a stretch)
Seth Jones??? If Jones is tier 1, why isn't Dougie?

Actually Dougie is tier 1 in this ranking, Gaudreau and Gio are tier 2, Tkatchuk tier 4, Monahan tier 4. Lots to quibble about with the ranking but the point is the Flames are not at disadvantage in high end players, and all of them performed well this year. It’s the rest of the team that underperformed.

[zamler]

According to that chart the Flames are on the same tier as the Penguins. So hire Mike Sullivan and two straight Cups later.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by iamca

Getting back to Tre, I think this team and organization is too soft, nice, accommodating, etc...

So, what is your solution? As I read this I can't help but imagine your preference would be for the Flames to conduct business in a more adversarial environment, similar to the toxic Trump Organization.

In between periods of the game against Winnipeg was a good example of the lack of focus, intensity, and softness. Anyone that saw the interview with Harmonic would attest to this and the whole vibe around this team, soft, not caring, focused on personal agendas instead of team goals, like winning some games down the stretch, improving the powerplay, players proving themselves for next season, etc...

Don't like the acceptance of being bottom dwellers and it seems like no one is paying attention or cares?

First of all, spell his name right. Second, this is a HUGE reach from the contents of an intermission interview. I did not see it, but was Hamonic responding to questions, or did he rather decide to ignore the interviewer and proceed with his own agenda? Interview time is controlled by the interviewer, and NOT the player.

[getbak]

The guy who made that chart first wrote about the idea on The Hockey News last summer, so it's not behind a paywall: http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...to-win-the-cup


It's based on "Game Score". I have no idea how valid this is as a stat, and I can't find anywhere that actually shows the current Game Score rankings for this season.

Based on the rankings from last summer (using projected numbers for this season), Gio and Hamilton were the Flames' two Tier 1 players; Gaudreau and Tkachuk were Tier 3; Backlund was Tier 4; and Frolik was Tier 5.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by getbak

...Based on the rankings from last summer (using projected numbers for this season), Gio and Hamilton were the Flames' two Tier 1 players; Gaudreau and Tkachuk were Tier 3; Backlund was Tier 4; and Frolik was Tier 5.

How the hell does Sean Monahan not fit into any "tier"? I didn't read the article, but what am I missing?