Francis: Treliving filled with disappointment, anger after team's collapse

[redforever]

Originally Posted by nik-

haha, and how would I ever get proof of something I'm simply suggesting is plausible.

Come on Jiri.

Considering the people you mentioned, I don't think you are suggesting something plausible.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Ok, seriously. These kind of comments need to end around here.


And why is it so hard to have a discussion where the merits of statistical analysis are included somewhere in the thought process? It doesn't mean that we should only look at the stats and form conclusions based on them alone, but why should we not include them at all? Why not use as much data as possible to aid our ability to understand what we're seeing on the ice? Perhaps it could show us the specific areas to improve on the team going forward. No? You say that it's entirely useless and we should focus on our gut instincts only to improve the team. Sounds like a poor idea to me. That's how we end up with the idea that this team needs more truculence.

What this team needs is more skill, all the way through the lineup. Do that and a lot of the problems go away. Give just about any coach enough skill and they will win their share of games, and then hopefully we can stop worrying if the coach is good enough.

Because according to what I read in this thread, unless you've actually punched the corsi numbers, you aren't taking everything into account, which nullifies my opinion. According to Bingo.

Originally Posted by the2bears

Why? You need to ask? Questioning peoples' integrity with nothing more to go on than "their posts disagree with mine"?

Is that okay for you?

I'm not questioning integrity. If someone paid me to post an opinion, and if I wanted to do so, I would. There's nothing wrong with it.

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Let's be clear. I am NOT an owner of this site. Bingo is the owner.

I care about this site because i think it is a great place for fans to discuss hockey.

I've never been paid a dime to do anything for this site though. Nor have I ever been paid by the Flames.

So yeah I resent the notion that because I have a different opinion that I'm on the Flames' payroll.

You seem to have a real problem accepting that someone can have a different viewpoint than you for rationale reasons.

These are not black and white or binary things. Different opinions ARE possible.

And as for opinions changing - go back and look at my history. I've been a long defender of coaches for taking too much blame. That ain't new. If anything it's annoyingly old.

Well, sorry that I caused you resent. I guess what I'm getting at is that for months, the guys in charge (you guys) have been saying what you're saying, and a few of the plebs have been saying what we're saying. I'm not accusing you of censorship, as you haven't gone around banning opposing opinions (which is why I like this site). Just that at some point, it seems baffling that three people that are doing us all this favour of hosting this site are all of the same opinion, when so many games and examples give plenty of reason for the opposing opinions to have...those opinions. But our (my) opinion is not good enough because I don't stare at corsi stats all night.

I watch the games. I have been for 30 years. GG sucks, and I don't need to study corsi stats for 9 months to have my opinion.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Amusing stuff here. We're now in a philosophical quandary over whether it's better to have the right result or have an established thought process which produces the wrong result. Supposedly those who came to an early opinion and then saw examples confirming that early opinion are more biased than those who stuck to a position supporting everything the coaching and management say and do, and stuck to stats that indicated that somehow the results had it wrong and things would even out.

I guess it makes sense. The same people who have been wrong all season but claim their conclusions were better because they followed a process are the ones who supported a methodical coach who has had a complete lack of success but got the team playing "the right way."

I don't think I'm going out on a limb here, though, to say that just about everyone would prefer a coach who gets wins regardless of the system and opinions that are right while there's still time to save the season.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by photon

Just as plausible as you being paid by the Oilers' organization to sow chaos among Flames fans.

Actually, it's the Russians.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Well, sorry that I caused you resent. I guess what I'm getting at is that for months, the guys in charge (you guys) have been saying what you're saying, and a few of the plebs have been saying what we're saying. I'm not accusing you of censorship, as you haven't gone around banning opposing opinions (which is why I like this site). Just that at some point, it seems baffling that three people that are doing us all this favour of hosting this site are all of the same opinion, when so many games and examples give plenty of reason for the opposing opinions to have...those opinions. But our (my) opinion is not good enough because I don't stare at corsi stats all night.

I watch the games. I have been for 30 years. GG sucks, and I don't need to study corsi stats for 9 months to have my opinion.

Bingo and I have traditionally seen the game similarly. Frankly CP radio was a little dull at times because there wasn't enough conflict. I'm not surprised we are on the same page on some of these things because often we are.

It probably doesn't run deeper than that.

And I hope I've never said that your opinion isn't good enough. I think when people engage in debate and challenge, that is often how it is interpreted. I think the opinion that GG sucks IS valid. My point the entire time has been less about whether he sucks or not, just that more of the accountability should rest with the players.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by photon

What you say to people matters, regardless of if it's on a hockey forum or at work or at home.

You're welcome to entertain your private fantasies about secret payments and conspiracies on your own time, but you aren't welcome to do it here where it insults the integrity of Bingo and the mods.

Woah woah woah... I don't think anyone (certainly not me, and I know Nik is a good guy) is accusing anyone of something underhanded. There's nothing wrong with being paid. I do that every day.

My post was along the lines of this forum being sanctioned by the Flames. I used to post on their old one, before I found this one. Nobody cares if someone is getting paid, just that it starts to sound like the guys on 960 that refuse to actually criticize the Flames.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by nik-

I do stand by what I said. The tonal shift of some of the mod posters, considering the timing, I found suspicious.

Is considering that maybe the Flames reached out to the team of the biggest team discussion forum really outrageous? It's really not. If it's wrong, it's wrong. But the reasons some people find it plausible are not illogical.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Bingo and I have traditionally seen the game similarly. Frankly CP radio was a little dull at times because there wasn't enough conflict. I'm not surprised we are on the same page on some of these things because often we are.

It probably doesn't run deeper than that.

And I hope I've never said that your opinion isn't good enough. I think when people engage in debate and challenge, that is often how it is interpreted. I think the opinion that GG sucks IS valid. My point the entire time has been less about whether he sucks or not, just that more of the accountability should rest with the players.

Well, I am sorry that my post caused this hullabaloo. May I please use the bolded as a sig?

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Well, I am sorry that my post caused this hullabaloo. May I please use the bolded as a sig?

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Then don't go around accusing people of it.
Don't come on me.
It isn't unreasonable to ask that people don't accuse others of being on the take absent any proof of it.
You don't get to do that.
How would you feel if someone at your work accused you have taking a bribe from a supplier.
And then defended it by saying it was "plausible".
It's off side. Way off side.

I'm more partial to this one myself.

[nik-]

also

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Don't come on me.

[photon]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Woah woah woah... I don't think anyone (certainly not me, and I know Nik is a good guy) is accusing anyone of something underhanded. There's nothing wrong with being paid. I do that every day.

My post was along the lines of this forum being sanctioned by the Flames. I used to post on their old one, before I found this one. Nobody cares if someone is getting paid, just that it starts to sound like the guys on 960 that refuse to actually criticize the Flames.

If the forum was sponsored by the Flames, it'd say "Sponsored by the Flames".

Pretending to hold a position arrived at naturally while being paid to hold that position behind the scenes is called astroturfing, and it's underhanded because it isn't up front and honest. Being accused of astroturfing is being accused of being underhanded.

If my job was a social media manager for the Flames and it was my job to post positive things about them, my title would say so.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I'm more partial to this one myself.

New user title for Dion

[Cecil Terwilliger]

If anyone from the flames organization is reading this, if you want to add me to the payroll and do some CP astroturfing, I’m your man. GG, the arena debacle, the crappy new malts, Brian Burke’s poor necktie etiquette, you name it, I’ll defend it. I have no scruples.

[bluck]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

If anyone from the flames organization is reading this, if you want to add me to the payroll and do some CP astroturfing, I’m your man. GG, the arena debacle, the crappy new malts, Brian Burke’s poor necktie etiquette, you name it, I’ll defend it. I have no scruples.

Didn’t know Sarah Huckabee Sanders also followed CP

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by photon

Pretending to hold a position arrived at naturally while being paid to hold that position behind the scenes is called astroturfing.

I had no idea there was a term for it, let alone that the term would be so awesome. Beats 'schill' by a long shot.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by photon

If the forum was sponsored by the Flames, it'd say "Sponsored by the Flames".

Pretending to hold a position arrived at naturally while being paid to hold that position behind the scenes is called astroturfing, and it's underhanded because it isn't up front and honest. Being accused of astroturfing is being accused of being underhanded.

If my job was a social media manager for the Flames and it was my job to post positive things about them, my title would say so.

I didn't realize I was making such an inflammatory accusation with a flippant comment. I wasn't trying to accuse anyone of serious shinguard, I was thinking about how every source of media I listen to refuses to actually criticize GG.

[nik-]

This is going to make for an awkward time at the CP draft table!

See you guys there!

[Hockeyguy15]

I don’t get being upset that someone (or multiple people) asked if you were on the payroll, I mean it isn’t like he said you were Eric Francis. Now that would be offensive.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Bingo and I have traditionally seen the game similarly. Frankly CP radio was a little dull at times because there wasn't enough conflict. I'm not surprised we are on the same page on some of these things because often we are.

It probably doesn't run deeper than that.

And I hope I've never said that your opinion isn't good enough. I think when people engage in debate and challenge, that is often how it is interpreted. I think the opinion that GG sucks IS valid. My point the entire time has been less about whether he sucks or not, just that more of the accountability should rest with the players.

You haven't, but Bingo basically did in this exchange this morning.

Originally Posted by Bingo

...
I also wonder if the system is good for having the puck and generating zone time and chance stats without actually out chancing the opposition.
...

Originally Posted by redforever

Isn't this what so many of us have been saying all along?

Originally Posted by Bingo

Actually no ...

"Many of us" have been jumping to the conclusion without doing the analysis at all.

I think that condescending post is why people are being a bit more combative than usual. You (Jiri) and Textcritic are just getting caught in the crossfire.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

I don’t get being upset that someone (or multiple people) asked if you were on the payroll, I mean it isn’t like he said you were Eric Francis. Now that would be offensive.

You don't get why I might be upset at fielding accusations of being a propagandist?