Vegan protestors angry that restuarant carved meat in front of them

[schteve_d]

Originally Posted by Slava

I don't think it's a pipe dream at all. People I know who hunt ( I don't) are not into making animals suffer or anything like that. Organizations like Ducks Unlimited have made enormous strides in protecting the animals and their habitats, and arguably have been more effective than a lot of pure protest groups.

Yeah, I maybe didn't word that right. I know a lot of hunters and I think for the most part they respect the animals and have no interest in unnecessary suffering of the animals.

I have heard many an awful story of animals suffering during hunts though, either purely accidentally, by the ineptitude of the hunter, or a wanton disregard for the suffering of the animals by an a$$hole.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

I am a meat eater and love it. I have no interest in going vegetarian or vegan and hope that things don't trend that way.

I am, though, what would fairly be called an animal lover. Far more than the fact of actually eating meat, I do care about how animals are treated during life and slaughter.

I do hope that attitudes with regards to this continue to improve in the West and though I hold little hope for it, at least in my lifetime, in the rest of the world.

I love wild meat (deer, elk and moose) though I don't hunt. I don't not hunt on ethical grounds, it's a lack of confidence in my abilities. If I could be reasonably sure that I could shoot and kill an animal quickly and "clean" then I could do it, but I don't want to watch an animal suffer; especially at my fault. I have nothing against hunting. I hope that hunters have the same respect for animals that I do but I know that's a pipe dream.

What makes a hunter disrespectful toward animals? Coming from someone who consumes meat "and have no interest" in stopping?

He kills his own food humanely. You hope the person who killed your food did so humanely.

Sounds like you are the one who needs to reexamine how you view and not the hunter.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

What makes a hunter disrespectful toward animals? Coming from someone who consumes meat "and have no interest" in stopping?

He kills his own food humanely. You hope the person who killed your food did so humanely.

Sounds like you are the one who needs to reexamine how you view and not the hunter.

I'm not sure what you're not understanding, his posts are very straight forward.

-He doesn't hunt because he doesn't trust himself to do it right

-He respects those that hunt humanely and "cleanly"

-He doesn't trust that everyone hunts that way and feels there's a lot of suffering out there due to people who don't care and people who suck at hunting.

[schteve_d]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

What makes a hunter disrespectful toward animals? Coming from someone who consumes meat "and have no interest" in stopping?

He kills his own food humanely. You hope the person who killed your food did so humanely.

Sounds like you are the one who needs to reexamine how you view and not the hunter.

Pretty much exactly what Jayswin said. I really think you need to go back and re-read my posts.

[Violator]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

Killing birds? Careful, the vegans will be upset.

On a serious note, as someone with a converted vegan in the family (now vegetarian) I get vegetarianism but I don't get veganism. What's the harm in consuming milk, cheese and eggs? I'd love for a vegan to explain this to me. I know I could ask my family member and I may, but it's a wee bit touchy.

I think it has to do the with the same reasons they wont eat meat milk cows are forced to produce more milk than they were designed for and are also pumped up with hormones and antibiotics.just like beef cows this helps farmers produce more product which in turns kills the cows and is inhumane in there eyes.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Russic

I could see lab-grown meat sway that outcome. If you can produce a product that's nearly indiscernible and cheaper, I think the politics of the consumers becomes much less of an issue. It'll be a long time before it's cheaper, but that was the case for solar vs. oil for quite a while too.

I think it'll be a bit like oil-loving right-wingers in a few years when they get a look at what limp-wristed hippie innovations like solar panels and electric cars can do to their budgets.

Nearly indiscernable wouldn't be enough to get me to switch, if I had a choice. If lab meat had a different taste or texture in the slightest it would turn me off completely.

[Suzles]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

Killing birds? Careful, the vegans will be upset.

On a serious note, as someone with a converted vegan in the family (now vegetarian) I get vegetarianism but I don't get veganism. What's the harm in consuming milk, cheese and eggs? I'd love for a vegan to explain this to me. I know I could ask my family member and I may, but it's a wee bit touchy.

So....the issue with dairy is that the milk produced by a cow is for her calf. Yes, cows don't just produce milk. They have to get pregnant - which is not done by a mummy cow and a daddy cow - it is by artificial insemination. The cow gives birth. If it is a boy calf he is either discarded or he becomes veal. If it is a girl calf she is also removed from the mother cow and fed a formula until she is old enough to eat grain/grass and then she starts the whole cycle of giving birth that her mother went through. Their lives are greatly shortened as a result. The cow produces way more milk than she would ever produce for her calf due to automated milking. There is also the problem that cows get mastitis - a severely painful inflammation of the udder. In the old days - when cow's were hand milked - the herdsman would know his cows well and would be able to see the inflammation and treat the cow. There is a legal limit of 400 million cells of pus per litre of milk for human consumption. Gross! Cows are also very maternal. How cruel to keep giving birth and having your baby taken away each time. Anyhoo, that's the reasoning about why vegans don't have dairy.

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[#-3]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

C: It is morally wrong to rob animals of their lives.

I guess I just don't agree with this as an unqualified conclusion.

I do understand that there are good arguemnts to be made about how we participate in the food web. but to accept that there is a moral existence for any life that is not synthesizing energy from inorganic means leads to a nihilistic line of morality, that I don't find particularly useful. My moral system requires reality such as the one that some living things have evolved to have other living things die for nourishment.

If you wanted aim the conversion towards how we raise and slaughter meat producing animals, I think there are useful moral arguemnts to be had, but I definately still lean towards improving the system while still maximizing human welfare first.

[Party Elephant]

Originally Posted by GGG

Actually if no one ate meat those cows wouldn't have existed so no one dies. Which raises an interesting ethical questions.

Do Vegans support the end of cattle, pigs and chickens as a species? The pig might make it as a service animal in some form but chickens and cows are gone as graisimg land is replaced with grain crops.

Basically this SMBC comic:

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Suzles

So....the issue with dairy is that the milk produced by a cow is for her calf. Yes, cows don't just produce milk. They have to get pregnant - which is not done by a mummy cow and a daddy cow - it is by artificial insemination. The cow gives birth. If it is a boy calf he is either discarded or he becomes veal. If it is a girl calf she is also removed from the mother cow and fed a formula until she is old enough to eat grain/grass and then she starts the whole cycle of giving birth that her mother went through. Their lives are greatly shortened as a result. The cow produces way more milk than she would ever produce for her calf due to automated milking. There is also the problem that cows get mastitis - a severely painful inflammation of the udder. In the old days - when cow's were hand milked - the herdsman would know his cows well and would be able to see the inflammation and treat the cow. There is a legal limit of 400 million cells of pus per litre of milk for human consumption. Gross! Cows are also very maternal. How cruel to keep giving birth and having your baby taken away each time. Anyhoo, that's the reasoning about why vegans don't have dairy.

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I don't want this to sound glib but in your opinion is the non-existence of these animals preferable to their existence in the food chain?

Whenever I think from a non speciest perspective I run into the issue of agency. Right now humans chose to eat and force these animals to suffer. A non meat eating society would choose for these animals to cease to exist. We are making a choice between for these species of non-existence vs an existence with suffering. If we assume that these animals should be treated equally is us choosing extintiomnthe correct choice for these animals?

[Suzles]

Originally Posted by GGG

I don't want this to sound glib but in your opinion is the non-existence of these animals preferable to their existence in the food chain?

Whenever I think from a non speciest perspective I run into the issue of agency. Right now humans chose to eat and force these animals to suffer. A non meat eating society would choose for these animals to cease to exist. We are making a choice between for these species of non-existence vs an existence with suffering. If we assume that these animals should be treated equally is us choosing extintiomnthe correct choice for these animals?

I would hate for them to be extinct. I find it immensely sad that people see no value in these animals If they can't eat them. I have had many rescued animal in my life apart from dogs and cats - old horses and goats intended for meat have had an idyllic time with me. I cannot see why people wouldn't still want to be enchanted by a clever pig or a cow that just wants it's ears scratched.

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[Scroopy Noopers]

Because life isn’t all sunshine and rainbows. Very few humans have the means to own a pig or cow.

In theory the above statement is nice... but it isn’t realistic.

[OMG!WTF!]

I don't think you have to wipe out cows and live on plants but there is no reason to treat dairy cows the way we do other than we want to make more money and people think milk is good for you. I can see that changing even more than it already has. I don't ever buy milk and I'd choose red sauce over cream but I'm not going to freak out if milk is a minor ingredient in something. It's an easy change that seems to benefit everything from health to the environment to animal welfare. It's an easy choice that more people will make in the future. They already have to market chocolate milk as a post workout Gatorade type product. It's a last gasp in my opinion.

[Suzles]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Because life isn’t all sunshine and rainbows. Very few humans have the means to own a pig or cow.

In theory the above statement is nice... but it isn’t realistic.

There's more than enough people to own large animals. How many people have horses worldwide? Why could you not see a few pigs or cows living alongside some horses. I can see, and have already seen, this. These creatures have tremendous personalities and are a joy to be around. Visit The Alice Sanctuary this summer for a close encounter with your 'meat'.

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[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

I don't want this to sound glib but in your opinion is the non-existence of these animals preferable to their existence in the food chain?

Whenever I think from a non speciest perspective I run into the issue of agency. Right now humans chose to eat and force these animals to suffer. A non meat eating society would choose for these animals to cease to exist. We are making a choice between for these species of non-existence vs an existence with suffering. If we assume that these animals should be treated equally is us choosing extintiomnthe correct choice for these animals?

That's a dubious formulation. Couldn't the same be said about humans deliberately bred to be sex slaves - it's better than not existing at all?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Suzles

There's more than enough people to own large animals. How many people have horses worldwide? Why could you not see a few pigs or cows living alongside some horses. I can see, and have already seen, this. These creatures have tremendous personalities and are a joy to be around. Visit The Alice Sanctuary this summer for a close encounter with your 'meat'.

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I know all about them and am in close contact often. And barely eat meat (and my other half doesn’t). And for the record if I had the land I would absolutely have a pet cow (or a few) that I wouldn’t consume.

I just grow tired of this whole debate. Humans are the only animals that at least attempt to humanely kill and eat other animals. For almost every other animal on the planet, being eaten alive is a day to day reality.

Obviously there are improvements we can make. And consuming meat on the current global level is unsustainable. But with a decrease in that isn’t going to lead to a bunch of farm animals becoming pets and getting pats on the head.

You either pay board for them or you own > $1,000,000 piece of land (at least in Ontario). Horses are a poor example because people ride them, but I would bet the percentage of the population that owns horses is microscopic.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

I just grow tired of this whole debate. Humans are the only animals that at least attempt to humanely kill and eat other animals. For almost every other animal on the planet, being eaten alive is a day to day reality.

It's not so much the slaughter of animals as the way we treat them when they're alive. Not a lot of animals treat other animals the way we do.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

That's a dubious formulation. Couldn't the same be said about humans deliberately bred to be sex slaves - it's better than not existing at all?

And that question would be valid if a human had no other Utiility. The fact that humans when liberated from the slavery will do other things and eventually support themselves gives a choice. Also not existing could be preferable to existing. For me personally I won't support the factory chicken and egg industry. In my opinion those animals are better off not existing.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

It's not so much the slaughter of animals as the way we treat them when they're alive. Not a lot of animals treat other animals the way we do.

By providing food and shelter to a wide array of other animals? You’re right, few other animals do that.

Originally Posted by GGG

And that question would be valid if a human had no other Utiility. The fact that humans when liberated from the slavery will do other things and eventually support themselves gives a choice. Also not existing could be preferable to existing. For me personally I won't support the factory chicken and egg industry. In my opinion those animals are better off not existing.

Chickens are a bit of an easier problem though. I buy all my eggs from a family I know that has a bunch of hens that live a great life. Ideally I’d have 2-3 of my own chickens, I’m just not able to yet.

But yeah the large scale factory chickens are a problem, and it’s quite horrible.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Suzles

There's more than enough people to own large animals. How many people have horses worldwide? Why could you not see a few pigs or cows living alongside some horses. I can see, and have already seen, this. These creatures have tremendous personalities and are a joy to be around. Visit The Alice Sanctuary this summer for a close encounter with your 'meat'.

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I think varieties of smaller pigs would exist as pets, not the currently farmed species though. I don't think many people end up with pet cows, you just need too much land. Chickens wouldn't be kept either. Certainly the populations of these animals would be decimated. The sanctuaries also likely die out as well as their supply of animals disappears.

For beef I direct buy halves from ranchers so I meet my meat. I think the one thing that at least amoung small scale non feed lot operations is that the farmers/ranchers really care for their animals beyond a simple financial investment. However I don't see that continuing if there wasn't a market for the end product.