Vegan protestors angry that restuarant carved meat in front of them

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

1. What's with all the predictions that eating meat will be "frowned upon" like smoking or dog fights? I don't see that happening, ever. We are going to start taking clients out for fancy $85 6 oz lettuce pile?

50 years ago the notion that gay marriage would become legal would have been laughed away as a ludicrous fantasy. Our social norms change dramatically over time. Some behaviours you think nothing of today will be regarded as repugnant 50 years from now. Guaranteed.

The general trend over the last two centuries has been a broadening of empathy. The rich used to regard the poor as little more than brute animals, and thought little of their suffering. Then we widened our moral circle to include rich and poor. 'Foreign' races were similarly regarded as something less than fully human and deserving of compassion. Their suffering was regrettable, but [shrug] what are you gonna do? Then our circle of empathy expanded to include all races. Up until recently, most people were wholly indifferent to the suffering of people in far-away places. If the Tsunami had happened in 1904 instead of 2004, people in Canada and the U.S. would have pretty much ignored it. What do people halfway around the world have to do with us? I have my own worries. By 2004 that came to be regarded as a pitiless and inhumane attitude. A generation or two ago almost all parents spanked their kids routinely and without any remorse. Few do today. Bullying used to be regarded as a perfectly normal - even healthy - part of childhood that everyone had to endure. No longer.

For many today, that circle of empathy is growing to include animals. Look at how many people treat pets like a member of the family. Well, pigs are as smart as dogs. They suffer as much from mistreatment and brutal living conditions. We block that stuff out because it makes us uncomfortable. I love meat, and have no intention of stopping to eat it. But I will not watch those movies on how our factory farming and meat production works, because I know it will just make me feel guilty about behaviour I have no intention of changing.

More and more young people look at animals and meat-eating differently from their parents. It's not at all unlikely that this will be another issue where a generation gap develops. And these sea changes can happen fast (again, look at gay marriage). Beliefs that hit 40 per cent among people under 30 are well on their way to becoming social norms.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Russic

Interesting (and I'm sure you're not alone). I'd be interested to hear why.

Not speaking for CroFlames, but I think anyone opposed to GMOs would be likely to have a problem with lab grown meat.

Hell, A&W's had great success with an ad campaign that is little more than "science is bad for you".

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Russic

Interesting (and I'm sure you're not alone). I'd be interested to hear why.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Not speaking for CroFlames, but I think anyone opposed to GMOs would be likely to have a problem with lab grown meat.

Hell, A&W's had great success with an ad campaign that is little more than "science is bad for you".

I think it's even simpler than that. In my primitive brain, meat grown by humans isn't a process that occurs in the natural world whereas hunted game and farmed meat is "natural" (i.e.: a mommy cow and a daddy cow get together and make a baby cow). I just don't think I could enjoy a lab grown fancy steak because in my mind the whole time I'd be picturing the damn thing growing in a petri dish in some brightly lit lab with white surfaces everywhere.

[Scroopy Noopers]

The difference between all of these examples that have phased out and meat, is none of them have anything to do with human survival.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Locke

While I largely agree with you, I have on many occasions mentioned that often the medium is just as important as the message, meaning that the delivery of the message can often determine whether or not that message is received or ignored.

That being said, the guy is the owner and chef of a restaurant and was presumably too busy to really have an unscheduled 1-on-1 with a group of protesters who showed up in force with signs and a megaphone.

I wouldnt have given them the time of day either.

Either make an appointment and we can discuss your concerns in a civilized manner or take your stand on the pavement.

He offered to take her on a foraging trip, she didn't respond to that, she could have headed off all of the negative sentiments that she is getting by agreeing to go on that trip.

Instead she looks like an all or nothing zealot.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

50 years ago the notion that gay marriage would become legal would have been laughed away as a ludicrous fantasy. Our social norms change dramatically over time. Some behaviours you think nothing of today will be regarded as repugnant 50 years from now. Guaranteed.

The general trend over the last two centuries has been a broadening of empathy. The rich used to regard the poor as little more than brute animals, and thought little of their suffering. Then we widened our moral circle to include rich and poor. 'Foreign' races were similarly regarded as something less than fully human and deserving of compassion. Their suffering was regrettable, but [shrug] what are you gonna do? Then our circle of empathy expanded to include all races. Up until recently, most people were wholly indifferent to the suffering of people in far-away places. If the Tsunami had happened in 1904 instead of 2004, people in Canada and the U.S. would have pretty much ignored it. What do people halfway around the world have to do with us? I have my own worries. By 2004 that came to be regarded as a pitiless and inhumane attitude. A generation or two ago almost all parents spanked their kids routinely and without any remorse. Few do today. Bullying used to be regarded as a perfectly normal - even healthy - part of childhood that everyone had to endure. No longer.

For many today, that circle of empathy is growing to include animals. Look at how many people treat pets like a member of the family. Well, pigs are as smart as dogs. They suffer as much from mistreatment and brutal living conditions. We block that stuff out because it makes us uncomfortable. I love meat, and have no intention of stopping to eat it. But I will not watch those movies on how our factory farming and meat production works, because I know it will just make me feel guilty about behaviour I have no intention of changing.

More and more young people look at animals and meat-eating differently from their parents. It's not at all unlikely that this will be another issue where a generation gap develops. And these sea changes can happen fast (again, look at gay marriage). Beliefs that hit 40 per cent among people under 30 are well on their way to becoming social norms.

Did you just try to apply western liberal values to global eating preferences?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

The difference between all of these examples that have phased out and meat, is none of them have anything to do with human survival.

Like a lot of things we are accustomed to, our current level of meat production and consumption is not sustainable in terms of human health and the health of our planet.

That’s not to say “everybody go vegan!” but we should be aware that the current state of the meat industry is problematic, long term.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Did you just try to apply western liberal values to global eating preferences?

I don't think it's a coincidence that the animal rights movement began, and is strongest, in liberal western countries.

[Ryan Coke]

I’d be curious about a deeper dive into stats about more young people being vegetarians. I wonder if the higher number of young people trying it has been around for a while, it’s just that very few of them persist with that lifestyle.

I have known a number of people, females in particular, that tried vegetarianism for a while, maybe even a few years. But all of them have returned to a more balanced diet. So I will be curious to see if young people that try veggie eating habits, what percentage actually maintain it and for how long.

Kind of like how when we are young and more idealistic we are more likely to be farther left in the political spectrum, but as we age and gain more of a broad world view people tend to slide farther right.

For me, I can understand and have strong concerns about animal treatment, but am also comfortable in my own omnivorous diet. So there is some reconciliation I have to do on my somewhat contradictory values.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I don't think it's a coincidence that the animal rights movement began, and is strongest, in liberal western countries.

Just don't be surprised when the rest of the world doesn't give a #### about western liberal opinions and keeps on eating meat.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Like a lot of things we are accustomed to, our current level of meat production and consumption is not sustainable in terms of human health and the health of our planet.

That’s not to say “everybody go vegan!” but we should be aware that the current state of the meat industry is problematic, long term.

Either that or the state of human overpopulation isn't sustainable. Everyone should go cannibal and kill two birds with one stone.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Just don't be surprised when the rest of the world doesn't give a #### about western liberal opinions and keeps on eating meat.

I won't be. Several countries today don't care about liberal Western opposition to the whale hunt. And dog-fighting and bear-baiting are perfectly acceptable entertainment activities in some parts of the world and not in others.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

....Everyone should go cannibal and kill two birds with one stone.

Killing birds? Careful, the vegans will be upset.

On a serious note, as someone with a converted vegan in the family (now vegetarian) I get vegetarianism but I don't get veganism. What's the harm in consuming milk, cheese and eggs? I'd love for a vegan to explain this to me. I know I could ask my family member and I may, but it's a wee bit touchy.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Like a lot of things we are accustomed to, our current level of meat production and consumption is not sustainable in terms of human health and the health of our planet.

That’s not to say “everybody go vegan!” but we should be aware that the current state of the meat industry is problematic, long term.

I 100% agree wth this. I disagree with smoking and gay marriage comparisons.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Then our circle of empathy expanded to include all races. Up until recently, most people were wholly indifferent to the suffering of people in far-away places. If the Tsunami had happened in 1904 instead of 2004, people in Canada and the U.S. would have pretty much ignored it.

Yeah, totally. A great example of this was our western empathy just pouring out over the tragic mall fire in Russia that killed 64 people, including 41 children, ten days ago.

We were just all over that, not ignored at all because it was far away. Nope.

Trapped in a movie theatre in a burning shopping centre, 11-year-old Vika Pochankina's last words came in a panicked phone call to her aunt: "I'm suffocating. Tell Mama that I loved her."

Yevgenia Pochankina told her niece to cover her nose with her clothes to fend off the smoke.
"After a moment, she disconnected," the aunt told The Associated Press.

The deaths of 64 people - including 41 children - in a Siberian shopping centre fire on March 25 have tormented their loved ones not only with the memories of those they have lost but with deep dismay about the state of life in Russia.

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by Locke

While I largely agree with you, I have on many occasions mentioned that often the medium is just as important as the message, meaning that the delivery of the message can often determine whether or not that message is received or ignored.

That being said, the guy is the owner and chef of a restaurant and was presumably too busy to really have an unscheduled 1-on-1 with a group of protesters who showed up in force with signs and a megaphone.

I wouldnt have given them the time of day either.

Either make an appointment and we can discuss your concerns in a civilized manner or take your stand on the pavement.

They are being completely disingenuous anyway so meeting would be a waste of time in any capacity. If you read through the facebook comments they always say that they are not attacking Antler and really want his restaurant to thrive. But then go on to say , so long as there are NO animal choices on the menu. I mean, the name of the restaurant is ANTLER for a reason. They say they don't want to shut him down because he can still run a restaurant. Then they call the owner the instigator of the situation, because after all if he didn't serve meat they wouldn't be there. The protestors and their supporters are bold faced liars and twist facts to gain the moral high ground. There is no point in arguing or even talking to them.

The facebook page has been deleting all reasonable omnivore comments and just keeping the really sick ones to make it look like everyone other than Vegans are hostile. This is very similar to the tactics of the Westboro Baptist Church and other similar Zealot organizations.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Yeah, totally. A great example of this was our western empathy just pouring out over the tragic mall fire in Russia that killed 64 people, including 41 children, ten days ago.

We were just all over that, not ignored at all because it was far away. Nope.

I think that has a lot to do with being in Russia.

[schteve_d]

I am a meat eater and love it. I have no interest in going vegetarian or vegan and hope that things don't trend that way.

I am, though, what would fairly be called an animal lover. Far more than the fact of actually eating meat, I do care about how animals are treated during life and slaughter.

I do hope that attitudes with regards to this continue to improve in the West and though I hold little hope for it, at least in my lifetime, in the rest of the world.

I love wild meat (deer, elk and moose) though I don't hunt. I don't not hunt on ethical grounds, it's a lack of confidence in my abilities. If I could be reasonably sure that I could shoot and kill an animal quickly and "clean" then I could do it, but I don't want to watch an animal suffer; especially at my fault. I have nothing against hunting. I hope that hunters have the same respect for animals that I do but I know that's a pipe dream.

[Russic]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Just don't be surprised when the rest of the world doesn't give a #### about western liberal opinions and keeps on eating meat.

I could see lab-grown meat sway that outcome. If you can produce a product that's nearly indiscernible and cheaper, I think the politics of the consumers becomes much less of an issue. It'll be a long time before it's cheaper, but that was the case for solar vs. oil for quite a while too.

I think it'll be a bit like oil-loving right-wingers in a few years when they get a look at what limp-wristed hippie innovations like solar panels and electric cars can do to their budgets.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

I am a meat eater and love it. I have no interest in going vegetarian or vegan and hope that things don't trend that way.

I am, though, what would fairly be called an animal lover. Far more than the fact of actually eating meat, I do care about how animals are treated during life and slaughter.

I do hope that attitudes with regards to this continue to improve in the West and though I hold little hope for it, at least in my lifetime, in the rest of the world.

I love wild meat (deer, elk and moose) though I don't hunt. I don't not hunt on ethical grounds, it's a lack of confidence in my abilities. If I could be reasonably sure that I could shoot and kill an animal quickly and "clean" then I could do it, but I don't want to watch an animal suffer; especially at my fault. I have nothing against hunting. I hope that hunters have the same respect for animals that I do but I know that's a pipe dream.

I don't think it's a pipe dream at all. People I know who hunt ( I don't) are not into making animals suffer or anything like that. Organizations like Ducks Unlimited have made enormous strides in protecting the animals and their habitats, and arguably have been more effective than a lot of pure protest groups.