Francis: Tire Fire

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

As bad as the optics would be of the Islanders picking 1st with the Flames pick I would take that over the Oilers or Canucks getting Dahlin.

Hamonic + Tavares for 1st + 2x2nd won't look so bad to everyone if BT plays his cards right on July 1.

If BT wants to redeem that poaching by Snow, that's one way to do it.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by redforever

Being patient is one thing.

Constantly having to correct mistakes is another. That amounts to one step forward and one step back...not in the best interests of any organization.

Not really about being patient for success. It's such a dynamic sport that it doesn't get fixed by one or two moves (ie. see up north of having the best player in the world and where the team is at). It's about accepting growth and trajectory. If we're status quo or declining, something needs to be done. Last season, the team made the playoffs, but there was a feeling that a couple pieces were missing and we needed a true goalie. Both were somewhat addressed (minus the top line RW). It was enough to see growth. Yes it did not pan out, so now time to address some new issues.

There is no set formula for success. So many millions of different factors play a role to have it come together for success. The young guns era and the entire era pre Iginla was very constant same mistakes.

We're finally in an era of management where we have more control (better contracts, no NTC for every player, good trades, etc.) Mistakes always happen and look horrible in hindsight, but they're not the same mistakes, which is key.

If this off-season they come out and say they're staying on course with the roster and coaching staff, then we have a problem, but I would be shocked if that happened.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Well the Oilers are going to pass us in the standings before the end of the year after having a 15+pt lead on them a month ago. Nothing to get upset about I guess.

Islanders get first overall who cares right. We trade a pick that turns into a franchise Dman and 2 2nds for a good team guy #4D.

If that Islanders pick becomes Dahlen that is a massive loss for the organization lotto luck or not.
.

Sure. You can obsess over it if you like. But it is a sunk cost and a done deal. It doesn't really matter to me what ball pops out - to get upset about what amounts to good or bad luck is silly.
But if you want to cause yourself more angst go ahead.
I'd rather talk about what happens going forward than constantly revisit the past. Because that's what matters. What they do now.

And I still maintain you simply cannot say they traded Hamonic for whatever pick because if they didn't have Hamonic they would be almost assuredly in a different spot in the standings. It is an emotional and irrational way of looking at things. Which you are entitled to do but I don't get it.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Sure. You can obsess over it if you like. But it is a sunk cost and a done deal. It doesn't really matter to me what ball pops out - to get upset about what amounts to good or bad luck is silly.
But if you want to cause yourself more angst go ahead.
I'd rather talk about what happens going forward than constantly revisit the past. Because that's what matters. What they do now.

And I still maintain you simply cannot say they traded Hamonic for whatever pick because if they didn't have Hamonic they would be almost assuredly in a different spot in the standings. It is an emotional and irrational way of looking at things. Which you are entitled to do but I don't get it.

That's pretty much me as well.

My first thought is "why didn't you lottery protect it?" ... which leads to a pretty easy answer for me in that Snow balked and it wouldn't have gotten the deal done. Treliving was pretty sure he wouldn't need it so he didn't push harder and beat out other teams to get Hamonic.

My next thought is the rental market and how teams gave up their first round picks for a few weeks ... glad the first didn't go that route. I like Hamonic and I'm glad he's going to be a part of this club for the next two years at a reduced rate.

Then finally I'm with you on the alternate reality view. Hamonic's presence changed the course of this team enough for me to know that the Flames wouldn't have finished in the exact same spot without him (good or bad depending on your like for the guy).

And then you have the rivals in the mix and that the Islanders having the pick in the top three is better than Edmonton or Vancouver.

[Flash Walken]

Isn't the freakin' Flames getting the top pick better than the Oilers, Canucks AND Islanders getting it?

Like...uh, isn't that also an option?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Isn't the freakin' Flames getting the top pick better than the Oilers, Canucks AND Islanders getting it?

Like...uh, isn't that also an option?

No they take away that option if you trade the pick.

Sucks ...

[Strange Brew]

Yep the Flames have an even better chance of winning the lottery if they hadn’t traded away those picks for Hamonic. Unless you believe he made the team worse.

At this point doesn’t matter. Just a bad trade IMO.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Yep the Flames have an even better chance of winning the lottery if they hadn’t traded away those picks for Hamonic. Unless you believe he made the team worse.

At this point doesn’t matter. Just a bad trade IMO.

Bad trade due to timing. I still think the pieces moved were appropriate.

[CalgaryFan1988]

It was a bad trade, period. I say that as a Hamonic fan.

People like to blame the coach for playing Brodie on the left side. This trade cemented playing Brodie on the left side, for the season.

[Monahammer]

I only think it's a bad trade in retrospect. Hindsight is always 50/50.

Almost none of us would have bet on the flames failing so spectacularly this season, and if the pick isn't in the lottery then I would still make the trade again.
Nothing ventured nothing gained. The pick could still end up in the 12-15 range depending on the end of season and lottery results, in which case Hamonic still has an enormously large chance of being a superior player to whoever would be available.

Personally I think the signing of Michael Stone rather than trusting our D prospects was a more egregious move that stole from some of the available money to upgrade our forward pool, resulting in us resigning versteeg and signing Jagr. Jagr actually looked good in his time here, and the third line performed at their peak during his tenure. Unfortunately I don't think the culture of our team was conducive to him staying. To me he looked better than Brouwer in every single game the two played, yet it was Jagr getting the hook. I wouldn't have wanted me swan song season to be debased below troy f'in brouwer either.

[Corral]

Many folks at the time - myself included - called the Hamonic deal an overpayment. Its a bad trade, and BT has likely been given direction by the other chefs in the kitchen to rectify this . Hence the rumour of a 2018 1st round pick coming our way.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I only think it's a bad trade in retrospect. Hindsight is always 50/50.

Almost none of us would have bet on the flames failing so spectacularly this season, and if the pick isn't in the lottery then I would still make the trade again.
Nothing ventured nothing gained. The pick could still end up in the 12-15 range depending on the end of season and lottery results, in which case Hamonic still has an enormously large chance of being a superior player to whoever would be available.

Personally I think the signing of Michael Stone rather than trusting our D prospects was a more egregious move that stole from some of the available money to upgrade our forward pool, resulting in us resigning versteeg and signing Jagr. Jagr actually looked good in his time here, and the third line performed at their peak during his tenure. Unfortunately I don't think the culture of our team was conducive to him staying. To me he looked better than Brouwer in every single game the two played, yet it was Jagr getting the hook. I wouldn't have wanted me swan song season to be debased below troy f'in brouwer either.

Didn't mean to nitpick, but shouldn't it be 20/20? 20/20 = perfect vision? Anyhow, I agree the rest of the post.

[Toonage]

nm

[devo22]

Hamonic took a while to settle in, but then he was solid. He pretty much came as advertised and I still think it's a decent deal if the Flames make the playoffs. Now that they've failed spectacularly, it looks a lot worse. But yeah, who really thought they'd crap the bed like they did? Hindsight is 20/20. When Tre made the deal, I don't think many of us envisioned the Flames folding like a tent in the last 20 games and missing the playoffs.

Same with Stone. I remember I was ecstatic when they re-signed him because I thought that'd be a hell of a blueline. Turns out I couldn't have been more wrong, although I still believe a lot of it boils down to coaching and the right hire can turn things around pretty quickly. I understand that things look really bleak and people are in hangover mode, but I think the foundation is there. A couple of roster tweaks, a new coach with a different system and revamped special teams would make a huge difference.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Calling it at the time or not is irrelevant. If the Flames play well the next two seasons and Hamonic is solidified on the second pairing then are you going to come back and say "I spoke too soon"??? What if a cup is won? If they instead finish last both times is it Hamonic fault?

I still think they paid a fair asking price for all elements of the return. Which is to assume the pick is in the bottom 15 picks of the 1st round. Unfortunately it didn't work out and that sucks bad.

[Kjesse]

While hindsight shows the Hamonic trade was not something one would do looking back, what we do know is that Treliving gave up the first rounder looking forward which included his estimation that the Flames would be performing such that the first rounder would not be a lottery pick.

He made that estimation because he thought he improved the defence corps and also that he had the team and the staff (as in coaching) in place to reach the playoffs, and that the addition of Hamonic was worth it.

Approach the Islanders and ask today if they'd undo the deal with the picks or equivalents, the answer would be flat no. Those picks are now far more valuable than Hamonic.

One of the big stories of 2018 in the NHL is how the Alberta teams helped rebuild the Islanders.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Hamonic + Tavares for 1st + 2x2nd won't look so bad to everyone if BT plays his cards right on July 1.

If BT wants to redeem that poaching by Snow, that's one way to do it.

Why would signing Taveras as a UFA be in any way connected to the trade?

And it likely has zero to do with Treliving playing his cards right.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Corral

Many folks at the time - myself included - called the Hamonic deal an overpayment. Its a bad trade, and BT has likely been given direction by the other chefs in the kitchen to rectify this . Hence the rumour of a 2018 1st round pick coming our way.

The rumour was that Treliving is looking to recoup a pick, not that he's getting one. Big difference.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by midniteowl

Didn't mean to nitpick, but shouldn't it be 20/20? 20/20 = perfect vision? Anyhow, I agree the rest of the post.

Probably referring to the 80/20 rule. You know, 80% of your hindsight has perfect vision, half of the time.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Kjesse

While hindsight shows the Hamonic trade was not something one would do looking back, what we do know is that Treliving gave up the first rounder looking forward which included his estimation that the Flames would be performing such that the first rounder would not be a lottery pick.

He made that estimation because he thought he improved the defence corps and also that he had the team and the staff (as in coaching) in place to reach the playoffs, and that the addition of Hamonic was worth it.

Approach the Islanders and ask today if they'd undo the deal with the picks or equivalents, the answer would be flat no. Those picks are now far more valuable than Hamonic.

One of the big stories of 2018 in the NHL is how the Alberta teams helped rebuild the Islanders.

I don't think the GM should be let off the hook for this. He's the architect of the team. He picked (and whiffed on) this coach that oversaw a team that was pretty healthy compared to a lot of teams over the course of the season and they were losing games to inferior teams at home long before injuries became a big problem at the end of the season. It's his job to be considering every angle and it's a bit worrisome that he had that much faith in a head coach that clearly had a lot of warts and that he massively overvalued defense while ignoring the team's offensive needs. My confidence in this GM is shaken and he's going to need a very good offseason which starts with getting an improved coaching staff and rectifying the dire situation on RW.