Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[iamca]

There are still a lot of millionaire's in the area, so what if there was either a grass roots or a formal movement to raise private funds to build a new facility?

Obviously the ownership of the actual building and usage, lease, etc... would be fuzzy, however it would put the control back into the hands of fans/citizens as opposed to politicians and Murray Edwards.

Crazy idea?

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

As a tax pro and someone deeply involved in the philanthropic sector over the past 20 years, I think I can say honestly that most people here have no idea of what is involved in the donation of large amounts to charities and/or the local community.

While goodwill is also built as a side-effect, in many cases, the major point is aggrandizing the donor (naming rights etc.). Nothing wrong with that, but frequently it's about ego as a motivator.

Where money is donated anonymously this is, of course, not so - and in most cases these gifts are most closely matched to the definition of true "philanthropy" - that is, giving without expectation of anything.

And, in the case of the Flames Foundation, for all that it does, the VAST majority of its funds come from YOU who buy 50/50s etc at the 'Dome, participants in golf and poker tourneys etc. Read their financial statements at CRA. Recently, there is only a very small smattering of "donations" (ie tax-creditable amounts). Most funding has nothing to do with the owners - who nonetheless are given most of the credit, even if somewhat wrongly.

What I was trying to say is that put aside the whole tax credit thing, the charitable work done by those in and because of that organization is a benefit for the city. A lot of the charitable events work because of the highr profile of the team and players.

I don't think I am going too far out on a limb saying the NHL player charity events get more than CFL, lacrosse or WHL events.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Cappy

We're back to this part of the thread, eh?

Spoiler!

Which part of this entire thread is new?

*The hot take is the flames are likely to move to the US
*The city is releasing plans in April about Vic park redevelopment with the arena site .
*Olympic bid decision should come by May.
*new arena doesn't improve the game day experience for the most fans because the view will be worse and everything will cost more.

[RM14]

Oh, and the current facility is litterly falling apart. Here's a photo from Sunday.

[Sample00]

Pardon me for bringing up a touchy subject....I dont live in Calgary anymore but can someone explain to me why the Calgary NEXXT project (the one just off Crowchild Trail with the environmentally unfriendly site) was such a bad idea?

It seems to me that would have been a great place to build a new complex and clean up an old, contaminated site.

From what I recall, CSAE wanted the city to clean up the site and "gift" them the land?

Sorry I just dont recall all the details...

A condensed version, please?

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by Sample00

Pardon me for bringing up a touchy subject....I dont live in Calgary anymore but can someone explain to me why the Calgary NEXXT project (the one just off Crowchild Trail with the environmentally unfriendly site) was such a bad idea?

It seems to me that would have been a great place to build a new complex and clean up an old, contaminated site.

From what I recall, CSAE wanted the city to clean up the site and "gift" them the land?

Sorry I just dont recall all the details...

A condensed version, please?

TLDR; It was way too expensive, the CRL and funding model were poorly thought-out, conflicted with West Village development plans and oh, you couldn't flush the toilets if both facilities were operating at the same time

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Sample00

Pardon me for bringing up a touchy subject....I dont live in Calgary anymore but can someone explain to me why the Calgary NEXXT project (the one just off Crowchild Trail with the environmentally unfriendly site) was such a bad idea?

It seems to me that would have been a great place to build a new complex and clean up an old, contaminated site.

From what I recall, CSAE wanted the city to clean up the site and "gift" them the land?

Sorry I just dont recall all the details...

A condensed version, please?

- City didn't want development that would cannibalize the progress of the East Village and Victoria Park.

- CSEC wanted to fund the arena via a CRL (like in Edmonton) but due to the footprint of the project, it would take up too much space to allow for the development around the arena to actually fund the CRL in the first place.

- On top of the unfeasible funding model, it didn't take into account all the added costs of remediation and improvement, which is what the City would want to use the CRL on (like they did for the East Village) rather than funding the arena and stadium/fieldhouse (which, as mentioned, wouldn't fund it anyway).

- City administration told CSEC not to bother with a proposal for that site because the city wasn't interested, and councilors and the mayor made not so subtle hints publicly that the Edmonton deal was not on the table. So the city, both council and administration, didn't like it very much when the Flames proposed a project on that site with the Edmonton funding model.

-It isn't the best site for the city's major event centre


But in one sentence:

Even if the City actually liked NEXT and was open to funding it, the proposed funding model was not feasible and made it a non-starter.

[DiracSpike]

Wormius
I think many people, and myself, voted for him because he wasn’t going to be handing a new taxpayer paid arena over to the CSEC to use at their discretion. I guess if the question comes up again by next election we should see the same results.

I thought he was just one vote on council though? No more powerful than Evan Wooley? How could Bill Smith have handed over an arena to the Flames if he was just the lowly mayor with no real power on council?

I'm not trying to attack you, but it just seems like there's a narrative that when Nenshi is in charge he's just a guy but when it looked like Smith was going to get elected suddenly he was a Flames puppet that was going to hand over a tender arena deal. It's very inconsistent.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Sample00

Pardon me for bringing up a touchy subject....I dont live in Calgary anymore but can someone explain to me why the Calgary NEXXT project (the one just off Crowchild Trail with the environmentally unfriendly site) was such a bad idea?

It seems to me that would have been a great place to build a new complex and clean up an old, contaminated site.

From what I recall, CSAE wanted the city to clean up the site and "gift" them the land?

Sorry I just dont recall all the details...

A condensed version, please?

There was nothing wrong with the proposed site. It was actually ideal for an arena and stadium for many reasons, and would have been the catalyst for a complete (and sorely needed) redevelopment in that area. Unfortunately the cost of the project (and who was going to pay for it), the matter of the creosote cleanup and the backlash of NIMBYers became the main factors of this discussion and ultimately a more subdued 'Plan B' was proposed for the Stampede location.

CalgaryNEXT fell off the rails for a variety of reasons, but I liked the West Village location for many reasons. I've seen concepts for the same area that are not CalgaryNEXT - and not released to the public - that were absolutely gorgeous. Given this I'm optimistic about the future of the arena, even though there's no movement on it for the time being. I know what Calgarians could get down the line (and it'll be better than Edmonton!).

[jlemire]

Everyone jumping on the "oh we'll just support the Hitmen" Bandwagon do remember that they are owed by CSEC and last time I checked I don't think that will still be around if the Flames leave....Someone else would have to step up and buy the Hitmen, Stamps, Roughnecks and continue to try and make it work in the Dome.....Don't think there are too many Millionaires who want to lose a bunch of money doing that...

[Otto-matic]

https://www.nhl.com/flames/tickets/playoffpush

$83 per ticket (plus applicable fees) - savings of up to 40%!

Flames having a hard time selling tickets?

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I thought he was just one vote on council though? No more powerful than Evan Wooley? How could Bill Smith have handed over an arena to the Flames if he was just the lowly mayor with no real power on council?

I'm not trying to attack you, but it just seems like there's a narrative that when Nenshi is in charge he's just a guy but when it looked like Smith was going to get elected suddenly he was a Flames puppet that was going to hand over a tender arena deal. It's very inconsistent.

Well, I suppose my vote for mayor and for my councillor were both made with an awareness that neither of them were planning on supporting the CSECs request for a free arena so there are 2 votes there. Still, the mayor will be a voice on any committees that would relate to the arena proposal. Would a committee dealing with the arena have the entire council on it? Probably not, so whatever is eventually brought back to a council-wide vote should have been vetted already to be a good deal for the taxpayers. At least that is my thinking.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

https://www.nhl.com/flames/tickets/playoffpush



Flames having a hard time selling tickets?

Yes. The re-sale market has resulted in true market prices that are often way less than face value. All pro teams are facing the same issue.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by jlemire

Everyone jumping on the "oh we'll just support the Hitmen" Bandwagon do remember that they are owed by CSEC and last time I checked I don't think that will still be around if the Flames leave....Someone else would have to step up and buy the Hitmen, Stamps, Roughnecks and continue to try and make it work in the Dome.....Don't think there are too many Millionaires who want to lose a bunch of money doing that...

Calgary could have a new WHL team without the Flames or CSEC. Even little towns have WHL teams. Does Cranbrook or Prince Albert have an entity like the CSEC behind them?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by iamca

There are still a lot of millionaire's in the area, so what if there was either a grass roots or a formal movement to raise private funds to build a new facility?

Obviously the ownership of the actual building and usage, lease, etc... would be fuzzy, however it would put the control back into the hands of fans/citizens as opposed to politicians and Murray Edwards.

Crazy idea?

So what . . . a gofundme campaign for a new building. Canvasing Millionaire to donate? What's in it for them?

An ownership stake? I doubt that would happen.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by RM14

Yes. The re-sale market has resulted in true market prices that are often way less than face value. All pro teams are facing the same issue.

interesting, i would bet they are slim pickings in high up corner areas of the whites/blues.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

If hockey is so essential of a public good that Canadians must spend hundreds of millions dollars of subsidies per franchise to support it's function it's clear what needs to be done.

We need to nationalize professional hockey.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

interesting, i would bet they are slim pickings in high up corner areas of the whites/blues.

My co worker went on the hot house in the middle of last year. This year he has season tickets in the front row of the whites. It's funny because he thought he'd be able to sell most but he can't get anywhere close to his cost

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by leah12

I doubt we'd lose professional hockey in Calgary if the Flames left town. We could easily support an AHL team in addition to the Hitmen.

The AHL won't come here, the travel costs would be extra ordinary.

The Flames would probably sell the Hitmen, the city would probably have to absorb the losses that the Saddledome would take with only two tenants in there.
(hitmen, Roughnecks). I think the Flames take care of a lot of the management costs and the maintenance don't they. So that would have to revert back to the City or Stampede Board as well. At some point if the scenario of the Hitmen and Roughnecks being the only two tenants. You might as well dynamite the Dome and have them play out of Max Bell.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by soulchoice

Agreed, I dont care about the Hitmen nor any other team in Calgary besides the Flames, let alone if the day comes the Flames are not in the city.

As far as the posts i have seen, the city definitely does need a field house. However in my opinion, the Stamps do not need a new home. Not that McMahaon is good by any stretch. However, overall the Stamps just arent a big enough draw, as important to the city, nor carry the same weight as a Major league sports team. Unless whatever is built is multipurpose and able to be used for more than just CFL football.

If the Flames leave Calgary, its doubtful that the owners will keep their share of the other teams. I have my doubts that anyone is going to step up to buy the Stamps, they're not lucrative enough to be that interesting of a purchase.

Either the team becomes community owned, of the CSEC tries to find an owner if they don't, the team folds.