Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Enoch Root]

Always great to see people speak on behalf of other peoples' charitable activity.

[Manhattanboy]

I don't think anyone has suggested that the Flames owners' substantial philanthropic endeavours have had or will continue to have strings attached.

But as has been pointed out, they are not selfish billionaires out to bleed taxpayers for every dollar they can.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

But as has been pointed out, they are not selfish billionaires out to bleed taxpayers for every dollar they can.

The list of demands made by, and the public behavior of, their employees beg to differ.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Because, to use an extreme example, if taxes go up by a penny, it makes no practical difference to anyone, whereas if they go up by $100000 it sure does.

I'm sure there are some who say "not a penny", but that's a pretty unrealistic position.

Well its a much bigger picture then that, besides that the actual tax base in Calgary is much smaller then the population. You only have to look at the news today where a bridge in Miami collapsed due to a lack of maintenance while they spent a ton of money on multiple sports venues.

[Cappy]

Lets leave the personal charitable contributions of the owners out of this lest both sides interject with calls of greedy capitalist / anti-business rhetoric at some insinuation

[vanisleflamesfan]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Well its a much bigger picture then that, besides that the actual tax base in Calgary is much smaller then the population. You only have to look at the news today where a bridge in Miami collapsed due to a lack of maintenance while they spent a ton of money on multiple sports venues.

Yeah... this makes for a good narrative but this is not actually what happened.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Well its a much bigger picture then that, besides that the actual tax base in Calgary is much smaller then the population. You only have to look at the news today where a bridge in Miami collapsed due to a lack of maintenance while they spent a ton of money on multiple sports venues.

Lack of maintenance? I thought it wasn't even open yet?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It's not an awful one, if we are talking about the amount of the City contribution. If you aren't willing to have the City contribute anything, that's fine (though pretty impractical) but then I don't see what point there is in negotiating anything further. I also assume you are up in arms about every other subsidy/consideration/tax break/etc. for other private businesses that the City gives. Did you, for example, complain about the 2017 business property tax cap? The Calgary Film Centre?

Let’s keep the discussion to the new hockey rink and why City should be gifting some of that to the benefit of Flames owners.

At least Ken King tried to put forth some kind of argument related to that when he referenced his new favorite tourist attraction, the Colosseum in Rome and how it was a gathering place for citizens etc. Unfortunately he couldn’t make a coherent point when tying it to the need for more luxury boxes.

But to make it work that’s the argument you have to win. The benefit to the citizens and why tax dollars should go there before other needs.

Not “the $’s are so small you won’t notice it”.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Hmmm. World class arena so we don't have to travel 3 hours north to see major entertainment acts and NHL franchise in your city long term or more bus shelters.

That’s one way to frame it. Here’s another way:

Newer and better luxury boxes or more food and shelter for the homeless, aid to the poor and neglected, enhanced services for seniors, improved police and fire departments...

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Lets leave the personal charitable contributions of the owners out of this lest both sides interject with calls of greedy capitalist / anti-business rhetoric at some insinuation

I think its worth noting that Ken King told his story about the Filipino lady at the hospice at basically every opportunity during this debacle. Nobody ever asked him, but he told that story multiple times. Not hard to see what the motivation was there, imo.

[Ducay]

Social licenses have costs; these businessmen know there is a cost of entry to everything.

[Hangman]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

You only have to look at the news today where a bridge in Miami collapsed due to a lack of maintenance while they spent a ton of money on multiple sports venues.

Originally Posted by jayswin

Lack of maintenance? I thought it wasn't even open yet?

It was still under construction.

From the Miami Herald: "A pedestrian bridge under construction collapsed Thursday, just days after crews had dropped an elevated 950-ton span in place in a project that was intended to give Florida International University students a safe route across the busy roadway."

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I think its worth noting that Ken King told his story about the Filipino lady at the hospice at basically every opportunity during this debacle. Nobody ever asked him, but he told that story multiple times. Not hard to see what the motivation was there, imo.

Agree, but that was a Flames story not a Owner story. That is still fair game

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Hmmm. World class arena so we don't have to travel 3 hours north to see major entertainment acts and NHL franchise in your city long term or more bus shelters.

Im sure alot of people that use Calgary's bus system couldn't care less about you having to drive 3 hours to go see live entertainment.

Most would love the opportunity to see the Flames live, but that appears outside the average Calgarians budget nowadays.

[RM14]

I say tear down the bus depot and build a soccer/CFL football stadium.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Except Nenshi was never negotiating.
There's no chance that the "owners are subsidizing the city". This is not an Arguement, because it's not possible.
-again, CalgaryNEXT was dead the day it was proposed. It's literally impossible to make work with anything remotely close to the proposed financial setup. It did not have potential, it was a disaster, and Ken King (and whoever else was in charge of that proposal) should have been fired that same day.

It really does blow me away that people thought any part of CalgaryNEXT had "potential". Forget the very poor execution of trying to sell the project, as I've said many times the project is fatally flawed and the city actually has negative incentive to put the fieldhouse money (which, lest we forget, still doesn't actually exist) into the project. The CSEC took a shot to get the Stamps a new home for free, I don't blame them for trying, but I'm grateful the council saw this was a terrible idea and basically dismissed it right away.

[calgarywinning]

The City has to clean up the grounds on the west side at some point. They got duped into buying the contaminated grounds leaching into the river. The cleanup costs of the project is a major expense, which the City quoted some ridiculous cost in their evaluation (around 800 million if I remember).

That's outside the scope of the project. Will the City look after their responsibility to do this? Or they intend to control the land while it is contaminated. Maybe they wait 30 years and soil tests will show the contamination has leached away.

I'm very conservative, but do I think the east village is a nice project and has refurbished a sketchy area of town? We could have done a lot with those tax dollars for many other areas. However, the City worked with private Corp to help assist and make a nice community.

Also, I disagree with comparing a luxury box at a sporting arena to taking away shelter for the homeless. The argument here is that the City has priorities that are Either/Or, which is n ot a reality of running a municipality. The municipality really has to look after the parks, while trying to assist homeless people, bridge maintenance, snow clearing. It all has to occur. You want investment in parks & recreation, art and other things which make the city more liveable, attracts tourism and quality of life.

Those luxury boxes help to fund the sport as they pay a larger majority per seat to keep a team like the Flames economically viable in our market. Likely a lot of people associated with those boxes do other things via charity for various people and causes.

Also, I maintain that what you have is a personal rivalry between the flames owner, KK and the mayor. All three of them behaving poorly instead of forging ahead to find a smart but exciting solution and break ground.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

It really does blow me away that people thought any part of CalgaryNEXT had "potential". Forget the very poor execution of trying to sell the project, as I've said many times the project is fatally flawed and the city actually has negative incentive to put the fieldhouse money (which, lest we forget, still doesn't actually exist) into the project. The CSEC took a shot to get the Stamps a new home for free, I don't blame them for trying, but I'm grateful the council saw this was a terrible idea and basically dismissed it right away.

Personally, I'm disappointed people don't seem to care at all about the fieldhouse, and it getting built ASAP. All we hear about is arena, arena, arena. But not a peep about fieldhouse itself. Should've been built years ago.

[Cappy]

We're back to this part of the thread, eh?

Originally Posted by RM14

I say tear down the bus depot and build a soccer/CFL football stadium.

Spoiler!

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

That’s one way to frame it. Here’s another way:

Newer and better luxury boxes or more food and shelter for the homeless, aid to the poor and neglected, enhanced services for seniors, improved police and fire departments...

Cross out luxury boxes and replace it with "Professional Hockey in Calgary". Because that's what we'll lose. Maybe you care about that or maybe you don't but let's be real and stop pretending that people are seriously arguing for better luxury boxes.

Also hilarious to see internet posters discard growing multi billion dollar businesses by "being in the right place and time" and discrediting massive financial donations to hospitals. You guys are the real heroes.