Treliving needs to start feeling the heat

[Jetfire]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Then they started bringing in spare part Canucks to fill spots - Bartkowski, Vey, Shinkaruk, (Chris Higgins on a PTO). Clearly those were GG's guys, because no one else could possibly have faith in any of them except for him.

Nicklas Grossman was another undoubtedly Gulutzan influenced signing. Was 1st line right winger Alex Chiasson GG influenced too? He didn't coach Chiasson directly, but he was right there in the Stars system during his tenure in Dallas.

[Flash Walken]

Lazar for a 2nd should be a scandal.

[Pointman]

The team's composition and the overall blueprint for assembling the squad are becoming questionable.

Also, Treliving is getting way too much credit for having "pieces". In capped NHL everyone has " pieces", specially if you can spend to the cap. That's the way the league is designed and it has nothing to do with Treliving. The job of GM in the parity era is not so much about collecting pieces, but rather putting them together to assemble a working machine, and thus requires some sound knowledge about designing a hockey team that can win in today's NHL. This is where Treliving have been falling short again and again.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Jetfire

Nicklas Grossman was another undoubtedly Gulutzan influenced signing. Was 1st line right winger Alex Chiasson GG influenced too? He didn't coach Chiasson directly, but he was right there in the Stars system during his tenure in Dallas.

I like to think Grossman and Korpikoski were personally vetted by Treliving and Don Maloney because of the Arizona connection.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Pointman

The team's composition and the overall blueprint for assembling the squad are becoming questionable.

Also, Treliving is getting way too much credit for having "pieces". In capped NHL everyone has " pieces", specially if you can spend to the cap. That's the way the league is designed and it has nothing to do with Treliving. The job of GM in the parity era is not so much about collecting pieces, but rather putting them together to assemble a working machine, and thus requires some sound knowledge about designing a hockey team that can win in today's NHL. This is where Treliving have been falling short again and again.

He has top end players on bargain contracts...with that he should be able to add incredible depth.

Hasn't happened yet though...Stajan/Brouwer ect.

Think if you had even fair value 3 and 4.5M forwards

[Flash Walken]

Let's give treliving the benefit of the doubt here:

Who could have expected the 17th place team in Goals For would have trouble scoring goals after adding 0 goal scorers to the lineup?

I mean, you'll never guess which team is 19th in the league in goals for this season, a single goal removed from 17th. Seriously, you'll never guess.

Ah, you got me! It's the Flames!

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

You make some good points but you're off about the need for a strong D core. Chicago built around a strong D core in Keith / *Campbell / Seabrook / Hjalmarsson. L.A. built around a strong D-core in Doughty / Voynov / Mitchell / *Muzzin / *Regehr. Pittsburgh's 2016 Cup came off a very strong top six D of Letang / Dumoulin / Daley / Maatta / Cole / Schultz each of whom played their role to perfection. Boston, again you're talking about guys like Chara and Boychuk, although goaltending carried them that one year in particular. You can go back further and find the 08 Red wings with Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall being an elite trio. And the year before that, the 07 Ducks with Pronger / Neidermayer / Beauchemin. There's no doubt that it's a prerequisite to the vast majority of good teams.

Really, the only teams to win cups without elite defense have been the 2017 Penguins (because Letang was hurt and their goalies played at an unreal level), and even that comes with the asterisk that Justin Schultz was a top Norris vote getter.

The problem is that our coaches in both scenarios you've named - Phaneuf / Regehr / Bouwmeester and Giordano / Brodie / Hamilton - have been Brent Sutter and Glen Gulutzan. Two coaches who are simpy braindead when it comes to utilization of defensemen.

As far as up front - yes those were good teams - all those good teams had true number one centers - guys like Getzlaf, Datsyuk/Zetterberg, Crosby/Malkin, Bergeron, Toews, Kopitar. You don't acquire a player like that by "GMing", you have to tank or hit the jackpot, and we never tanked and we never hit the jackpot with a #1 center. It's just the reality of the situation although I'm sure someone will tell me how Sean Monahan is great at scoring 3 on 3 goals or power play snap shots which means we can just ignore the completeness of his game and pretend he impacts the game like the aformentioned group.

Never said you don't need a strong D core. Just stated you don't need to "load up" on D and spend every strong asset you have on making sure its "elite". This team has to grow out of the mentality that D takes priority over forwards.

As for the D cores you mentioned:

Chicago had the best top 9 any team has seen in the last decade, they were built from the forward group out. Sure Keith is elite but the fortunes of that team turned around when they could fill the net with ease.
LA had a strong D but nothing over powering, Doughty was elite but the rest if you ask me was good not great.
Pittsburgh pretty meh if you ask me, Letang didn't even suit up last year in the playoffs and they still won being led by Schultz.

Management just needs to stop prioritizing D over forwards. You win in the NHL today with skill and speed. Every top team in the league has 1 thing in common and thats speed up front. The Flames severely lack in that department yet management hasn't even acknowledged it, let alone addressed it.

As for the "GMing" comment, this is exactly why you don't trade 1st round picks for #4 dmen, especially when your honest with yourself and know your team isn't close to being a cup contender. With the way the draft is setup now, BT deserves to be fired for that gaff.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Lazar for a 2nd should be a scandal.

My guess is that is Dave Cameron flexing whatever influence he had, since had him in Ottawa.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Let's give treliving the benefit of the doubt here:

Who could have expected the 17th place team in Goals For would have trouble scoring goals after adding 0 goal scorers to the lineup?

I mean, you'll never guess which team is 19th in the league in goals for this season, a single goal removed from 17th. Seriously, you'll never guess.

Ah, you got me! It's the Flames!

Treliving was very frank about being very worried in the hour long chat with McKenzie in the fall about where goals were coming from. He hoped some prospects would step up in camp, and that guys like Sam would step up into that role, and they didn’t, and he enabled his plan b to go ahead with Jagr which had previously been discussed. And Sam has not done what’s been required of him lighting the lamp.

Again though, I’ll put more blame on the lost 8-10 or so points that can be pretty easily be identified as to when and where they were wasted, on the coaching tactics and lack of ability to be able to push the players to another level to finish teams off after dominating most of the game...and the terrible PP the last 3 months, more then the lack of having two extra scorers. Flames got out to early leads and GG had well organized. When teams were allowed to hang around and change tactics, Flames staff didn’t counter, or, challenge the roster hard enough to find that next gear and get thet back breaking goal...and it came back to bite them a lot against division opponents and that’s a huge bucket of points that have dropped off the Flames total which they could use right now and on April 7th.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by CGY12

Never said you don't need a strong D core. Just stated you don't need to "load up" on D and spend every strong asset you have on making sure its "elite". This team has to grow out of the mentality that D takes priority over forwards.

As for the D cores you mentioned:

Chicago had the best top 9 any team has seen in the last decade, they were built from the forward group out. Sure Keith is elite but the fortunes of that team turned around when they could fill the net with ease.
LA had a strong D but nothing over powering, Doughty was elite but the rest if you ask me was good not great.
Pittsburgh pretty meh if you ask me, Letang didn't even suit up last year in the playoffs and they still won being led by Schultz.

Management just needs to stop prioritizing D over forwards. You win in the NHL today with skill and speed. Every top team in the league has 1 thing in common and thats speed up front. The Flames severely lack in that department yet management hasn't even acknowledged it, let alone addressed it.

As for the "GMing" comment, this is exactly why you don't trade 1st round picks for #4 dmen, especially when your honest with yourself and know your team isn't close to being a cup contender. With the way the draft is setup now, BT deserves to be fired for that gaff.

Pittsburgh D pretty meh.. yes

Add Crosby as top line center, and I think the Flames D may actually turn out to be adequate.

[Flash Walken]

Browna:

Where is a team 17th in goals going to get those extra goals from to finish teams off?

I feel like you're not being intellectually honest here, to borrow a phrase.

All of the team's best players are exceeding last year's output. Tkachuk is roughly a point per game over his last 30 or so, dougie leads the league in goals from defenders, Monahan is 12th in the league in goals and Gaudreau is 6th in points. Backlund only has 5 less points than this time last year.

Just who is it that the coaches were going to will to score more? Lomberg? Tanner Glass? Troy Brouwer? Garnet Hathway? Travis Hamonic?

The team makeup is woeful.

If the GM says out loud he's concerned about where goals are going to come from, and then the team struggles to score goals, is that the coach's problem? Shouldn't the GM, who acquired 0 goal scoring support save a 45 year old non-training camp has been bear some, if not the vast, vast majority, of the blame for that?

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Browna:

Where is a team 17th in goals going to get those extra goals from to finish teams off?

I feel like you're not being intellectually honest here, to borrow a phrase.

All of the team's best players are exceeding last year's output. Tkachuk is roughly a point per game over his last 30 or so, dougie leads the league in goals from defenders, Monahan is 12th in the league in goals and Gaudreau is 6th in points. Backlund only has 5 less points than this time last year.

Just who is it that the coaches were going to will to score more? Lomberg? Tanner Glass? Troy Brouwer? Garnet Hathway? Travis Hamonic?

The team makeup is woeful.

If the GM says out loud he's concerned about where goals are going to come from, and then the team struggles to score goals, is that the coach's problem? Shouldn't the GM, who acquired 0 goal scoring support save a 45 year old non-training camp has been bear some, if not the vast, vast majority, of the blame for that?

He should of traded for a goal scorer instead of Hamonic. We were fine with what we had. I really question Treliving's ability if he thought that was the best use of our picks to put us over the edge. It really blew up in his face.

We have stockpiles of good young D prospects and basically ONE good forward prospect. What the heck was he even thinking. Give a spot to Andersson and spend the picks on a RW Sniper with a heavy one timer so we can have a decent PP threat. We didn't need another D man. We needed to push Backlund and/or Frolik down to the third line. They are tasked with two jobs and it shows in our lack of scoring depth, they are a 3rd line shut down group and a second line scoring group.

Its easy to see what needs fixed. Pretty much all of Treliving's trades outside of Hamilton I haven't been impressed with.

[Monahammer]

Sam Bennett was supposed to be a 20g scorer are the very least, so there's some of the missing offense. His failure to develop into anything useful has been one of the teams greatest challenges. We got sold a lemon.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Psytic

He should of traded for a goal scorer instead of Hamonic. We were fine with what we had. I really question Treliving's ability if he thought that was the best use of our picks to put us over the edge. It really blew up in his face.

We have stockpiles of good young D prospects and basically ONE good forward prospect. What the heck was he even thinking. Give a spot to Andersson and spend the picks on a RW Sniper with a heavy one timer so we can have a decent PP threat. We didn't need another D man. We needed to push Backlund and/or Frolik down to the third line. They are tasked with two jobs and it shows in our lack of scoring depth, they are a 3rd line shut down group and a second line scoring group.

Its easy to see what needs fixed. Pretty much all of Treliving's trades outside of Hamilton I haven't been impressed with.

The problem with the Flames has been the same for years, regardless of management staff. I'm not sure if it is because of the value ownership places on things during the interview process for senior management, or just the conservative nature of the city rubbing off on the team, but the same attitudes and behaviors have existed since Al Coates was GM and the Young Guns days were a massive failure. Since then, the team has preferred to rely on veterans over youth, and grit over skill. This was of course amplified when Sutter was brought in, and entrenched when Burke was hired. This continues to hurt the team.

I think we can all agree that when you bring a kid up from the AHL there is an adjustment period. The vast majority of players need time and experience to find their way in the NHL. They need time to come in and learn. The Flames are terrible at managing their young players and instead believe in this "over-cooking" bull####. A player who has over-cooked still has to come up and go through that adjustment period. All you're doing is hoping the adjustment period is shorter, which is rarely is. It still takes a player a good year of play to figure things out. The continual approach of leaving players in the minors to bake is just really kicking the adjustment can down the road. This is why I have always held the belief that the team leave two-three positions open on the roster for young players, so they can go through the adjustment period on the lower lines and then move up in the lineup, and contribute as expected, the following year. Very seldom do players just jump right in and perform at high levels because they need that period to adjust. But the Flames don't allow for this. It is systemic and I believe it is a philosophical thing, and a condition of employment.

Having got that off my chest, I agree with what you are saying. Management has bungled the whole roster. Treliving had a vision and he chased it down. He used the old adage that defense wins you championships. He believed in systems that relied on structure and puck possession. Unfortunately he wasn't a progressive thinker and saw the direction the league was going. He didn't see the reliance on speed coming in like it did.

I'm still not 100% sold that the makeup of the roster is that bad. Yes, there are some glaring problems. Stajan and Brouwer are wasted slots in the lineup. They are problems that need to be addressed. But I truly believe that the core problem is the garbage system that Gulutzan has them trying to play is a greater problem than the sum of this team's parts. In a league where speed and transition make the difference in generating offense, and creating the mayhem when systems fails, the Gulutzan system works counter to establishing that chaos for the opposition. The ordered five man approach is old school and a loser proposition. It does not use the talent on the roster and plays right into the hands of the opposition. I just find it impossible to believe that this team could not run teams out of the barn if they allowed the defense to activate and join the rush like they did under Hartley. It is ironic that they sacked Hartley when the core of his system is likely more aligned with the current NHL than the garbage Gulutzan is making the team try and play.

Personally I would I'm torn on what to do. I would like to see a new competent proven coaching staff brought in and see what they can do. I would like to see Treliving stop signing retreads, rely on the youth in the system, and start addressing the most pressing needs. I would like to see the talent on the team being used where the players are in positions to succeed and feed off each other rather than languish in an system destined for failure. I think they can do this and be successful. If they can't, then its time to scorch earth this mother####er and burn it to the ground. Everyone from Ken King on down gets shown the door and a new era of Calgary Flames hockey is born, focusing on the philosophy of speed, youth, and skill trumps everything else. I'm more of the former right now, but that latter is still pretty appealing. If we are going to have to watch a loser, I'd rather watch an entertaining loser. The paint drying garbage of the Gulutzan era is sucking the life out of the fans, and all enjoyment of the game of hockey.

[djsFlames]

Get a second finisher who is on the same level as Monahan and takes the pressure off of Monahan, and you'll get results. That's what I would've said last summer and that's what I'm still saying now. No 3rd liners, no waiver wire pickups, no reclamation projects. A bonafide scorer. There's a reason the first line pairing freezes up at the most important time - because it's all on them in order for the team to produce at a regular clip and they know it. It also makes it easier to shut the team down. The focus only needs to be given to one line. Backlund's line has its moments but 2/3 of it is shooting at a very low percentage.

This should've been addressed ahead of the need for a 4D going into the season. The assets we spent were put towards a more minor need than they should've been, because as we found out the organization is deeper at D than management feared following last season. Hamonic stabilizes the back end a bit, but he doesn't help move the needle on the team. Treliving has to stop going the bargain bin route for scoring help and actually address the problem by paying up in a trade (which is harder now) or spending to get that top UFA. Hopefully the team has learned that following the various experiments that simply haven't panned out.

[Jason14h]

We built this team from the backend out.

We knew they would have trouble scoring as a team. However:

Brodie - 4 Goals
Hamonic - 1 Goal
Kulak - 2 Goals
Stone - 2 Goals

You can not have your bottom 4 D score a combined 9 goals in 250 games played.

Then add in a 4th line that has scored what, 5 goals when on the ice together?

Jagr, Bennet, and Versteeg were all expected to contribute more for sure, but the above is a massive black hole for offense, that doesn't have an easy/quick fix next year.

Then you need 2 more top 9 players (Unless you believe Bennett is one, which I don't)

I laugh at the lineups with a 4th line of Shore, Lazar and Hathaway for next season. That should be our 5th line to start the season, worth case.

[Saint Troy]

Kyle Dubas or Craig Conroy, who is up next? Not lottery protecting the Hamonic first, Lazar, RW black hole, this coaching staff, Treliving shouldn’t be trusted to reshape this team.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Let's give treliving the benefit of the doubt here:

Who could have expected the 17th place team in Goals For would have trouble scoring goals after adding 0 goal scorers to the lineup?

I mean, you'll never guess which team is 19th in the league in goals for this season, a single goal removed from 17th. Seriously, you'll never guess.

Ah, you got me! It's the Flames!

Unfair, we added Jagr he had 16 goals the year before. Also added Hamonic who had 3 goals. Lost Chiasson and Engelland who had 15 goals combined, so we actually added 4 net goals, but then we lost Wideman and his 5 goals, so Ya zero.

Brad saw an opportunity to get another dman and was all over it. If he could have signed Nigel Dawes we would have our scoring figured out.

I think there may be an opportunity to give our 2019 1st, 2020 2nd and 2021 2nd to the Islanders for Leddy, that would round out our defence quite nicely.

I also think if we added the 2022 2nd we could get Del Colle to play alongside Lazar.

[Flamescuprun2018]

Still a big BT fan. But do feel he is still learning the job. One off season signing at 1RW or 2RW. Hoping one of Gawdin or Dube emerges to fill out our bottom 6 scoring. Liked the Shore acquisition. Still think Lazar has potential.

BT great at contract negotiation, trades above average, improved our development program/draft, able to recruit young UFAs (Rittich/Foo/Gawdin) but so-so with July 1 signings and GG/coaching staff a growing disappointment.

Not lottery protecting this pick turning into one of his top 5 blunders. On par with Brouwer, Raymond, Bouma signings.

He should have provided a two year window for giving up that pick. But easy to say in rear view mirrior.

As of this morning only a 7.2% chance of a top 3 pick. Dreading the lottery. Not so bothered if it ends up a pick at 13.

http://www.tankathon.com/nhl

Expectations clearly too high this year with our lackluster scoring and complete reliance on a 35 year old goalie.

Home record was horrible when I was in the Dome. I think I heard "ring of fire" only three or four times this year and I have been to close to 20 games!

Rittich and Gillies not quite ready for primetime as we have now learned. Probably needed a Chad Johnson type backup again although would be 2 year deal rather than rolling dice with Lack"lustre".

[Jason14h]

Can we stop saying not lottery protecting be pick was a big mistake . The NYI get a say on the trade and obviously wouldn’t accept a protected pick

[MisterJoji]

Generally, I like the majority of the moves Treliving has made. I feel like his “win now” moves would’ve paid off if he hadn’t had made the critical error of hiring Gulutzan. Here’s a coach who has had 3 full seasons and 1 abridged season and has yet to win one playoff game. If that’s not reason enough to cut ties with him after this season then Treliving can go too.