Treliving needs to start feeling the heat

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Locke

Sorry for the confusion, I was talking about Gulutzan.

Nothing about GG has ever suggested to me that he's got a big ego or thinks he's right all the time. He's not knee jerk, to a fault sometimes, but I'd rather he erred that way.

Frankly, I found Hartley a lot more arrogant. Often he was self-deprecating but only in a "look how humble I am" way.

And if you want to find a guy who thinks he's the smartest guy in the room on the Flames, look to the very top. The only thing is, he probably is.

[Gaskal]

Treliving learns pretty quick from GM mistakes and his diligence usually is good enough to prevent huge ones.

Unfortunately, took a couple seasons for the UFA lessons to kick in. Bouma, Raymond both bought out, Brouwer's form was trending in that direction at the end of last season and inherited the mantle of Whipping Boy Prime from Wideman.

At least he mercifully sat on his hands this year and merely dipped his toes. And Brouwer appears to have bucked scapegoat status for the time being, even though he's still massively overpaid.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

When I watch them this season there are a tonne of shots from very good scoring positions that they miss, and also a lot of set ups which should result in goals but do not because of an extra pass or a "whiff" by the open shooter.

I don't see this, but we both know this is very prone to bias so who knows.

These are not things the coaches are instructing nor are they exhibits of deficient skill. It really does appear mostly resulting from a cognitive block for an inordinately high number of players at a very inopportune time.

Even if your theory is true, coaching is also mental. It's one of the things that separate the great coaches from the good ones. (I would argue that all successful NHL coaches are by definition great coaches, or very lucky.)

Fear of failure and lack of confidence can be results of poor coaching. In fact I would argue that if the whole team is suffering from similar problems for a long time, it's quite likely to be a coaching issue at least to some degree. (Or some other thing that creates a bad atmosphere in the dressing room.)

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

I mean the missed shots thing satisfies the eye test. A guy like Jankowski, have you ever seen a player miss the net as much?

Bennett.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Fans tend to forget that the GM is making moves to win and also to preserve his job. Call it old school outdated thinking but 99% of GMs are wary of adopting a strategy that relies heavily on drafting top end talent, especially with mid round picks, because in all likelihood they'll be fired well before those picks ever payoff, if they ever do.

That kind of impatience is why Canadian teams have been unable to carry out sustained and successful rebuilds. In a capped league, drafting and development is the foundation of success. Exchanging long-term pain for short-term gain is a recipe for mediocrity.

Personally, I'd be happy if the Flames adopted the Jets, Blues, and Ducks approach to building a team.

[killer_carlson]

Look, I understand that many trust Treliving more than I do, but from my perspective I see a guy who struggles making mid-season decisions.

He hung Hartley out to dry on goaltending in his last season. He's leaving the franchise out to dry with coaching decisions and special teams this season.

My trust in "the process" is low.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If you want to put your apples in that cart I can't stop you.

But when the league defines a scoring chance from home plate, and all teams have the same definition it seems like a stretch to assume Calgary is finding that least harmless area in the home plate section all the time./

This is made especially true when you think of the fact that they lead the league in missing the net by a country mile.

Getting chances and squeezing sticks.

I don’t really follow those stats closely, but don’t many people believe that shot counting is incredibly inconsistent and inaccurate from building to building. Isn’t there an element of garbage in garbage out for some of this?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Look, I understand that many trust Treliving more than I do, but from my perspective I see a guy who struggles making mid-season decisions.

He hung Hartley out to dry on goaltending in his last season. He's leaving the franchise out to dry with coaching decisions and special teams this season.

My trust in "the process" is low.

I think you are greatly overestimating how easy it is to come up with mid-season fixes to many of these problems. Take a look around the League and you will see that these sorts of dramatic shakeups are rare and tend not to produce immediate results.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

I mean the missed shots thing satisfies the eye test. A guy like Jankowski, have you ever seen a player miss the net as much?

Monahan and Giordano miss the net an awful lot as well.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

That kind of impatience is why Canadian teams have been unable to carry out sustained and successful rebuilds. In a capped league, drafting and development is the foundation of success. Exchanging long-term pain for short-term gain is a recipe for mediocrity.

Personally, I'd be happy if the Flames adopted the Jets, Blues, and Ducks approach to building a team.

Trading and signing for win now can work. You just have to bet on the right horses, players that are undervalued pre-apex.

I'm glad the organization had learned from its previous mistakes such as signing past their prime veteran grit guys for long term deals only having it come back to bite them.

I mean, remember when we traded for a 31 year old Wayne Primeau and then signed him to a three year deal? I'm glad we learned our lesson when we had to trade a second round pick that was used to draft Brandon Saad to Toronto to get him off our books. (Not to mention not even giving Stralman a chance because he was "soft") How far back does that single move put the organization?

At least we haven't made any other signings for long term for veteran grit and leadership that might handcuff the franchise.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Look, I understand that many trust Treliving more than I do, but from my perspective I see a guy who struggles making mid-season decisions.

He hung Hartley out to dry on goaltending in his last season. He's leaving the franchise out to dry with coaching decisions and special teams this season.

My trust in "the process" is low.

He got him two new goalies last year, one of whom was at the top of the league stats wise.

What you are arguing is that he should have been able to make a quick fix when Elliott was struggling. For who? And at what price? Then, Elliott really turned it on and the trade deadline came and went with the team doing quite well.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don’t really follow those stats closely, but don’t many people believe that shot counting is incredibly inconsistent and inaccurate from building to building. Isn’t there an element of garbage in garbage out for some of this?

There was a concern and with that came the "adjusted for venue" numbers that I think likely had an "outing" effect that created a pretty small bias now.

The Flames are 3rd in scoring chance share five on five and 4th when you take into account score and venue.

Minuscule difference.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He got him two new goalies last year, one of whom was at the top of the league stats wise.

What you are arguing is that he should have been able to make a quick fix when Elliott was struggling. For who? And at what price? Then, Elliott really turned it on and the trade deadline came and went with the team doing quite well.

And many reports that both Bishop and Fleury were on their way to Calgary at the deadline, which gives him two stars in my mind.

1. Trying to fix something
2. Knowing when the cost is too high and backing away

He was trying to prevent that Ducks meltdown by Elliott.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He got him two new goalies last year, one of whom was at the top of the league stats wise.

What you are arguing is that he should have been able to make a quick fix when Elliott was struggling. For who? And at what price? Then, Elliott really turned it on and the trade deadline came and went with the team doing quite well.

My reference was to Hartley, who was given 4 goalies, none of whom played in the NHL again.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

My reference was to Hartley, who was given 4 goalies, none of whom played in the NHL again.

Sorry, I see that now. But Ramo and Hiller had gotten the Flames to the second round. I agre they weren't good the next year. So who was available and at what price?

[killer_carlson]

We'll never know.

But what we do know is that the goaltending affected on ice performance and was used to can the coach. The season was effectively thrown away. I don't see any way Hartley could have succeeded with those goalies.

Much like now, I don't think it matters if we make a trade or not. The PP design and utilization by the coaching staff does not work. Is treliving so tied to GG and DC that he won't make a move?

Is he waiting to see if quenville becomes available?

I don't think he'll throw the season like he did with Hartley because we don't have the draft picks. But I think he errs on overly patient at times.

We've blown 6 point in our last 5 games. With special teams and coaching being front and center for the loss of those points.

Coaches are not doing anything about it. Lineups remain the same. Stubborn insistence to the pp style.

So if coaching isn't going to do something about it, the GM should be asked whether he intends to intervene, or at what his measuring stick should be for him to intervene.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

We'll never know.

But what we do know is that the goaltending affected on ice performance and was used to can the coach. The season was effectively thrown away. I don't see any way Hartley could have succeeded with those goalies.

Much like now, I don't think it matters if we make a trade or not. The PP design and utilization by the coaching staff does not work. Is treliving so tied to GG and DC that he won't make a move?

Is he waiting to see if quenville becomes available?

I don't think he'll throw the season like he did with Hartley because we don't have the draft picks. But I think he errs on overly patient at times.

We've blown 6 point in our last 5 games. With special teams and coaching being front and center for the loss of those points.

Coaches are not doing anything about it. Lineups remain the same. Stubborn insistence to the pp style.

So if coaching isn't going to do something about it, the GM should be asked whether he intends to intervene, or at what his measuring stick should be for him to intervene.

Seriously?

[killer_carlson]

Yeah.

Dead serious.

He wanted the draft pick.

He had league worst goaltending and his solution was to trade for a guy who hadn't played in a year. There is no doubt in my mind his "process" involved a high draft pick.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

There was a concern and with that came the "adjusted for venue" numbers that I think likely had an "outing" effect that created a pretty small bias now.

The Flames are 3rd in scoring chance share five on five and 4th when you take into account score and venue.

Minuscule difference.

Thanks Bingo. Appreciate the insight and helps me appreciate these numbers more. No doubt these numbers can’t measure the subjective quality of chances. Against Vegas, Flames didn’t just give up 2 shot attempts, or two high danger scoring chances. They gave Vegas 2 goals. Let’s hope they’re building character. 😉

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Yeah.

Dead serious.

He wanted the draft pick.

He had league worst goaltending and his solution was to trade for a guy who hadn't played in a year. There is no doubt in my mind his "process" involved a high draft pick.

I think that’s pretty accurate. It was still tank mode for the team and their newish GM.