The trials and tribulations of Glen Gulutzan

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Locke

We're not talking about 'Upper Echelon' or 'Top 5 Teams in the NHL' but they should be comfortably in a playoff spot. One of the top 16 teams in the NHL.

The only teams comfortably in a playoff spot just over the mid-way point of a season ARE upper echelon teams.
This just underscores where there is an apparent disconnect.
Either you believe the team is elite, and therefore expected them to be sittin' pretty right now, or you don't - in which case they are largely meeting expectations.

Right now they are one of the top 16 teams in the NHL.

Indeed they probably expect to make the playoffs, but I also think they probably knew it would be a fight. Because it is a fight for most.

[Strange Brew]

Forgetting about the what we gave up for Hamonic for a minute, if at the end of last year, I'd told you that the Flames had:

- received Vezina calibre goaltending from their starter who is basically playing every game
- added Hamonic to their D and brought back all others
- received a breakout offensive performance from Ferland
- Gaudreau and Monahan in top 10 in scoring and goals respectively
- no significant injuries

You would simply not believe they are sitting on the playoff bubble. It doesn't have to be GG's fault, but that is alot to add to last year's results and have nothing to show for it.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by SportsJunky

This probably sums it up. It comes down to expectations. It sounds like you (and many others here) had high expectations of the team for this season. The fact that they aren't taking the next step as many believed they would this year must be frustrating to some.

Personally, I didn't believe that they would challenge for the Pacific. I thought they had a better than average chance at getting into the playoffs though. I still do. I'm not calling for anyone's head. They are right about where I thought they'd be.

I thought they could challenge for the division because I didn't think any team would run away from the pack. I thought it would be pretty compressed.
Vegas has surprised us all. The Flames point totals are in line with my expectations, but I didn't think a team would be where Vegas is, let alone THAT team

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Absolutely it is. The Hamonic trade gives the organization the air of "high expectations" when factoring in the picks used.

So if my (or other fans) expectations need to be tempered, why is Treliving hellbent on foregoing 3 rounds of drafting for immediate help?

All that said, the Flames WOULD be a top 10 team if they could beat the sad sack Oilers for once.

Again - Hamonic is not just IMMEDIATE help. They paid a premium to add a guy for a number of seasons. Not a rental.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Forgetting about the what we gave up for Hamonic for a minute, if at the end of last year, I'd told you that the Flames had:

- received Vezina calibre goaltending from their starter who is basically playing every game
- added Hamonic to their D and brought back all others
- received a breakout offensive performance from Ferland
- Gaudreau and Monahan in top 10 in scoring and goals respectively
- no significant injuries

You would simply not believe they are sitting on the playoff bubble. It doesn't have to be GG's fault, but that is alot to add to last year's results and have nothing to show for it.

I don't agree.

Their biggest problem last year was a lack of punch up front.

Before the team drafted Tkachuk, they needed TWO offensive top 6 wingers. Then Tkachuk arrived and was terrific, but the team still proved to be about 25 goals/50 points away from being a clear contender. That's why they brought in Jagr.

This year, they've added another 20 goals from the top end of the roster but have lost 15-30 goals from the bottom half of the roster depending on how you look at it.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't agree.

Their biggest problem last year was a lack of punch up front.

Before the team drafted Tkachuk, they needed TWO offensive top 6 wingers. Then Tkachuk arrived and was terrific, but the team still proved to be about 25 goals/50 points away from being a clear contender. That's why they brought in Jagr.

This year, they've added another 20 goals from the top end of the roster but have lost 15-30 goals from the bottom half of the roster depending on how you look at it.

I’m not sure we actually disagree here. My point is that you would have expected all the things I listed would have had a positive impact on the standings. The fact that it hasn’t isn’t necessarily an indictment on GG, but on how the roster is built. Or a combination of factors.

But it’s also a little like whack a mole. I could see the Flames address secondary scoring in the offseason. But a whole lot of the things I listed could regress.

But honestly, better goaltending alone should be having more of an impact on results, shouldn’t it? I know I would have thought so coming into the season.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I’m not sure we actually disagree here. My point is that you would have expected all the things I listed would have had a positive impact on the standings. The fact that it hasn’t isn’t necessarily an indictment on GG, but on how the roster is built. Or a combination of factors.

But it’s also a little like whack a mole. I could see the Flames address secondary scoring in the offseason. But a whole lot of the things I listed could regress.

But honestly, better goaltending alone should be having more of an impact on results, shouldn’t it? I know I would have thought so coming into the season.

But hasn't it had an impact on the standings?

After 47 games last year the Flames were 16th in the league in points and after 47 games this year they are 13th in the league in points.

Last year after 47 games the Flames were 4th in the Pacific.
This year after 47 games the Flames are 3rd in the Pacific.

The flames have 5 more points at this point compared to last year, except the West has gotten better and also added Vegas, one of the best teams in the league this year.

The team has improved but the league and especially the west, is more competitive.

[Enoch Root]

The biggest difference in the offense from last year is a huge drop-off in production from the defense. It is being mostly mitigated by increased production from the top line, but all that is doing is making the overall numbers look similar.

And while the total numbers for the offense may be similar, very little about the team or the offense is actually similar from last year.

The strengths of the team are not being utilized properly. That fact is being veiled by Smith and Gaudreau.

This argument is going around in circles now, but I still haven't seen any plausible arguments as to why significant portions of the team have regressed from last year. The personnel changes don't justify it.

Taking last year's team, adding Hamonic to the D, Hart-level goaltending from Smith, and next-level play from Gaudreau, should have this team taking the next level. But it isn't. So either many parts of the team have regressed, or there is something wrong with the way it is functioning.

For me, the second choice is not only more plausible but is blatantly evident.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

But hasn't it had an impact on the standings?

After 47 games last year the Flames were 16th in the league in points and after 47 games this year they are 13th in the league in points.

Last year after 47 games the Flames were 4th in the Pacific.
This year after 47 games the Flames are 3rd in the Pacific.

The flames have 5 more points at this point compared to last year, except the West has gotten better and also added Vegas, one of the best teams in the league this year.

The team has improved but the league and especially the west, is more competitive.

The Flames 10 game winning streak had not occurred yet so while the team isn’t 5pts ahead last years team had quite the run ahead of them just to get in

[Jiri Hrdina]

Statistically speaking the goaltending is similar to last year is it not?
Moose had a slow start but for much of the season tending wasn’t a problem
But I sure feel more confident that Smith won’t totally implode in the playoffs

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

Statistically speaking the goaltending is similar to last year is it not?
Moose had a slow start but for much of the season tending wasn’t a problem
But I sure feel more confident that Smith won’t totally implode in the playoffs

Pretty sure the save % is far better this year compared to last. 9.20+ vs .910

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

Again - Hamonic is not just IMMEDIATE help. They paid a premium to add a guy for a number of seasons. Not a rental.

This is a fact. Hamonic was a long term deal but the team trading 3 valuable high picks for a 27 year old was telling the fan base to expect another step forward. That was emphasized by the earlier trade for 35 year old Smith for a prospect and pick.

The season got back on track prior to the break and had many of us feeling that step forward has occurred. What I feel today is a fan base that is worried and expecting to drop the next 2 and be on a 4 game slide into the all-star break.

Win the next 2 the team is 9-0-2 in their last 11 and a little more comfortable in a pacific spot. Lose the next 2 they are on the outside of the playoff picture for another 4 days.

The next 2 days are huge for the temperature of the fan base.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

But hasn't it had an impact on the standings?

After 47 games last year the Flames were 16th in the league in points and after 47 games this year they are 13th in the league in points.

Last year after 47 games the Flames were 4th in the Pacific.
This year after 47 games the Flames are 3rd in the Pacific.

The flames have 5 more points at this point compared to last year, except the West has gotten better and also added Vegas, one of the best teams in the league this year.

The team has improved but the league and especially the west, is more competitive.

I didn’t realize Flames were 5 points ahead of last year at this time, but not sure how relevant that is compared to their pace, which would put them almost exactly at last year’s point total. It’s a fair point if you believe Flames results are better than last year. I am of the view that really they are not, which ultimately I find somewhat disappointing to this point. If the rest of the West is improving faster than the Flames, well I find that disappointing too. Yeah Vegas is good. But Oilers are much worse.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

Statistically speaking the goaltending is similar to last year is it not?
Moose had a slow start but for much of the season tending wasn’t a problem
But I sure feel more confident that Smith won’t totally implode in the playoffs

Goaltending was losing them games at start of last season, no? That has hardly been the case at all this year.

I agree with you about playoffs. But of course, have they fixed the problem if the top line is shut down 5 on 5, can they score?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The biggest difference in the offense from last year is a huge drop-off in production from the defense. It is being mostly mitigated by increased production from the top line, but all that is doing is making the overall numbers look similar.

And while the total numbers for the offense may be similar, very little about the team or the offense is actually similar from last year.

The strengths of the team are not being utilized properly. That fact is being veiled by Smith and Gaudreau.

This argument is going around in circles now, but I still haven't seen any plausible arguments as to why significant portions of the team have regressed from last year. The personnel changes don't justify it.

Taking last year's team, adding Hamonic to the D, Hart-level goaltending from Smith, and next-level play from Gaudreau, should have this team taking the next level. But it isn't. So either many parts of the team have regressed, or there is something wrong with the way it is functioning.

For me, the second choice is not only more plausible but is blatantly evident.

Significant parts of the roster have regressed.

This year Hamilton has 5 less points than he did this time last year, but Brodie is 4 more than last season. Giordano remarkably has the same amount of points, but 2 more goals.

So then where's the problem?

Last year this time, Versteeg had 20 points in 35 games, this year 8 points in 22 games.

Last year this time, Brouwer had 17 points in 39 games. This year 13 in 47.

Backlund has 6 less goals than this time last year.

Last year this time, Stajan had 16 points in 47 games. This year, he has 2 in 37 games.

The point is, there isn't some massive discrepancy, they've scored marginally more this year than last. The gain in offence from the top line is offset by the loss of offence from the bottom 6. This loss of offence basically comes down to player regression and replacing Wideman with Hamonic and Engelland with Stone (who appears to have even less offensive contributions than Engelland).

Lazar, Hamilton, Stajan and Hathaway have combined for 102 games this year and scored just 13 points. Chiasson scored 14 points for Calgary last year by Game 47. Stajan had 16 by game 47.

Bennett is one point off last year's pace at this time that saw him finish with 26 points. Has 3 less goals.

[Enoch Root]

Yes, I know everybody's stats. I said the same thing you did, which is that the team isn't the same as last year. Other than Gaudeau and Ferland, most of the forwards have regressed and the D, overall, has regressed offensively.

The issue is why?

Either there is less talent, or the talent isn't being utilized well. Which do you think it is?

[Shazam]

Gulutzan had a winger take draws.

In OT.

On the PK.

That winger was Troy Brouwer.

He dumb.

[SportsJunky]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Either there is less talent, or the talent isn't being utilized well. Which do you think it is?

Can’t there be other options?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes, I know everybody's stats. I said the same thing you did, which is that the team isn't the same as last year. Other than Gaudeau and Ferland, most of the forwards have regressed and the D, overall, has regressed offensively.

The issue is why?

Either there is less talent, or the talent isn't being utilized well. Which do you think it is?

lol.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by SportsJunky

Can’t there be other options?

such as?