The trials and tribulations of Glen Gulutzan

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by cannon7

If this was expected to be a middling team, we sure gave up a lot of assets to get here. Doesn't seem worth it.

Its also not the finished product.

Did a trade for Hamonic truly signal to you that the Flames were all-in and it was SC or bust this season?

I just don't get that thought process at all.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by cross16

I also think part of it is how you view the Hamonic trade. I personally never thought it was a great deal and it's certainly looking like it wasn't a very good deal so should that impact your expectations? Especially when you could argue that Treliving prioritized the wrong asset (scoring was biggest weakness).

Absolutely it is. The Hamonic trade gives the organization the air of "high expectations" when factoring in the picks used.

So if my (or other fans) expectations need to be tempered, why is Treliving hellbent on foregoing 3 rounds of drafting for immediate help?

All that said, the Flames WOULD be a top 10 team if they could beat the sad sack Oilers for once.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Its also not the finished product.

Did a trade for Hamonic truly signal to you that the Flames were all-in and it was SC or bust this season?

I just don't get that thought process at all.

You trade multiple picks including a future first and then go acquire a 35 year old goalie. If that doesn’t tell me this team expects more than a dogfight for the wildcard spot i don’t know what does.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Its also not the finished product.

Did a trade for Hamonic truly signal to you that the Flames were all-in and it was SC or bust this season?

I just don't get that thought process at all.

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Absolutely it is. The Hamonic trade gives the organization the air of "high expectations" when factoring in the picks used.

So if my (or other fans) expectations need to be tempered, why is Treliving hellbent on foregoing 3 rounds of drafting for immediate help?

All that said, the Flames WOULD be a top 10 team if they could beat the sad sack Oilers for once.

No one is saying SC or Bust. Well, no one but you is saying that.

But if you trade all of your assets in the first 3 rounds of the draft you are expecting to make some noise.

Not just maybe squeak into the playoffs. If you're lucky.

The use of draft picks for immediate assets that contribute signal the intention to compete in the immediate future. Especially since 1st rounders are all eligible to move up based on the whims of the God of Ping-Pong balls.

You dont move them unless you're sure.

[colbym72]

The ceiling for this team is comfortably in a playoff spot for sure, but when I look at the forward group, there is room for improvement. There is a reason the team has had to call up so many players. After the top 6, it isn't deep enough. This team rolls when Johnny is rolling. When the first line plays the way it has the last two games, this team struggles to score.

The 4th line provides nothing and while you can only expect so much from a 4th line, the reality is we have a 4th line right now with a total of 1 goal between the 3 of them. We have a 3rd line with a rookie centre, an extremely hot/cold LW, and a career tweener RW. In order for this team to hit expectations, the hot/cold guy needs to be more consistent, Jankowski has to continue to develop, and they need a more offensively skilled RW. Also, the coaches need to figure out the PP. That is a major problem

[cross16]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Absolutely it is. The Hamonic trade gives the organization the air of "high expectations" when factoring in the picks used.

So if my (or other fans) expectations need to be tempered, why is Treliving hellbent on foregoing 3 rounds of drafting for immediate help?

All that said, the Flames WOULD be a top 10 team if they could beat the sad sack Oilers for once.

And to be fair i'm not suggesting anyone temper their expectations. Expectations differ per person I just think how you view the Hamonic trade helps you understand where your expectations come from. And in, some, fans defense Treliving did himself say it was time to raise expectations and Gulutzan talked about being a 100pt club. I just happen to think they oversold it.

Just saying my expectations were not raised due to the Hamonic trade because IMO that trade did not move the needle. Didn't on paper and that's unfortunately being proven on the ice.

But we are also barely over half way through the season. Based on their play and the roster I would still argue the Flames have similar chances at making a cup run as does the majority of the Western Conference, they'll just need to get hot at the right time.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by cross16

And to be fair i'm not suggesting anyone temper their expectations. Expectations differ per person I just think how you view the Hamonic trade helps you understand where your expectations come from. And in, some, fans defense Treliving did himself say it was time to raise expectations and Gulutzan talked about being a 100pt club. I just happen to think they oversold it.

Just saying my expectations were not raised due to the Hamonic trade because IMO that trade did not move the needle. Didn't on paper and that's unfortunately being proven on the ice.

Why? They moved their 1st round pick. Thats no small gambling chip, especially if organizationally you're not even sure about making the playoffs.

If you feel the playoffs are a crapshoot, you keep your 1st or at least Lottery Protect it.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Its also not the finished product.

Did a trade for Hamonic truly signal to you that the Flames were all-in and it was SC or bust this season?

I just don't get that thought process at all.

I agree that this isn't a finished product yet. Rebuild is over but they aren't done building. Treliving wondered where the goal scoring was coming from in the summer, that has shown to be an issue. I don't think anyone expected Smith to be the solution in goal long term, let alone post the Vezina numbers he has so far.

Holes still have to be filled to be a contender, but when a defenseman of Hamonic's alleged caliber comes up you have to go for him. They only become available every few years. I think this was more the Flames looking at the next 3 years with the deal, not this is a make-or-break season like is being suggested by others.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by Locke

Why? They moved their 1st round pick. Thats no small gambling chip, especially if organizationally you're not even sure about making the playoffs.

If you feel the playoffs are a crapshoot, you keep your 1st or at least Lottery Protect it.

Fully agree. Which is why I wish they never made the move in the first place. Or used that asset on someone who could provide goals in their top 6, which I think was their bigger weakness.

I think Treliving miscalculated. That's why it didn't change my expectations.

[SportsJunky]

Maybe a poll is in order? Are the Flames playing to your expectations or below? I'm guessing they will match up closely to the Fire Gulutzan? poll.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Locke

No one is saying SC or Bust. Well, no one but you is saying that.

But if you trade all of your assets in the first 3 rounds of the draft you are expecting to make some noise.

Not just maybe squeak into the playoffs. If you're lucky.

The use of draft picks for immediate assets that contribute signal the intention to compete in the immediate future. Especially since 1st rounders are all eligible to move up based on the whims of the God of Ping-Pong balls.

You dont move them unless you're sure.

Yes....and competing for a playoff spot they are.

The goaltending thing had to be addressed whether or not it was imagined they would be a playoff team, that much is obvious.

If they didn't trade their draft picks, they would never have gotten Hamonic, regardless of where they believed they would be standings wise. He is a guy you add long term, not as a put us over-the-top acquisition.

I have no doubt they expected to have improved the club this year, and in some ways they have done just that. Team defense is still a big problem, but much improved from even 2 months ago.

It's all starting to come around a bit IMO. I mean people are losing it when the club has just taken 16 of the 18 pts available to them in the last 9 games. Pretty good stuff.

Its not a perfect team and in fact one with a couple glaring flaws...which puts them on equal footing with the majority of other NHL teams sans a couple elite teams and the handful of bottom feeders.

So unless a SC run was the expectation, I am not sure what the problem is and what so much of this demi-hysteria is all based on.

[Housley4Prez]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

I guess I’m assuming since big name coaches or proven coaches never come here. Bad weather, high cost of living, high taxes, Canadain market (pressure), losing tradition, cheap owners, are all possible reasons for taking other options when you have a good coaching resume. The reason I threw cheap owners in there was in reference to you mentioning getting out the cheque book. They must not be, or we would see bigger names behind the bench from time to time.

I'm with you on most of these reasons, but where do you get that Calgary is a high cost of living, in a league with LA, NY, Toronto, Vancouver, Chicago, Dallas, heck even Ottawa is more expensive.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ngs/in/Calgary

[Locke]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yes....and competing for a playoff spot they are.

The goaltending thing had to be addressed whether or not it was imagined they would be a playoff team, that much is obvious.

If they didn't trade their draft picks, they would never have gotten Hamonic, regardless of where they believed they would be standings wise. He is a guy you add long term, not as a put us over-the-top acquisition.

I have no doubt they expected to have improved the club this year, and in some ways they have done just that. Team defense is still a big problem, but much improved from even 2 months ago.

It's all starting to come around a bit IMO. I mean people are losing it when the club has just taken 16 of the 18 pts available to them in the last 9 games. Pretty good stuff.

Its not a perfect team and in fact one with a couple glaring flaws...which puts them on equal footing with the majority of other NHL teams sans a couple elite teams and the handful of bottom feeders.

So unless a SC run was the expectation, I am not sure what the problem is and what so much of this demi-hysteria is all based on.

Sure. But you're cherry-picking the good. We also had a dreadful start so those 16 of 18 points, while an impressive record, have us scrambling for the playoffs.

If 16 of 18 was so spectacularly awesome then shouldnt we maybe be doing better than clawing for the playoffs?

Its a good run. But its wasted off-setting bad runs. Which it appears we're about to head down again.

Awesome small-sample performances are great, but in the context of the Flames they just offset previous and/or upcoming Awful small-sample performances.

And what is everyone clamoring for? Is it.....it is! Consistency!

[Enoch Root]

Yes, goal scoring was an issue in the summer, and remains an issue.

But it has been pointed out on this site numerous times that Gulutzan plays the fourth line as much or more than any other team plays theirs. and our 4th line, despite some changes, has been one of the weakest in the league throughout the season. One obvious and immediate way to improve goal scoring is play your top 9 more and your 4th line less.

Improving the PP wouldn't hurt either.

But most importantly, it is known by everyone that follows hockey that the strength of this team is on the blue-line. And yet production from the blue-line is way down, and not on pace for the key 150 point barrier that playoff teams typically achieve. This is yet another example of how the roster isn't being properly utilized. Here is the point production from defensemen for the last 4 years:

14/15: 195 points
15/16: 203
16/17: 176
17/18: 136 (pace)

I doubt there is anyone on this site that thinks this is about what we should have expected from the D this year.

And saying Hamonic doesn't move the needle is bizarre to me. I have never seen a hockey team that was too good on defence. Championship teams almost invariably have great defenses.

The problem with this team isn't a lack of scoring, it's mis-appropriation of assets. They are not utilizing the roster properly. Saying the team isn't that talented just ignores the issues that are staring us in the face.

[SportsJunky]

Originally Posted by Locke

Its a good run. But its wasted off-setting bad runs. Which it appears we're about to head down again.

See it's this kind of statement that divides the fans. They have taken 2 points in 2 games where they haven't played all that well. Some would see this as a positive. Just sayin'.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Locke

Sure. But you're cherry-picking the good. We also had a dreadful start so those 16 of 18 points, while an impressive record, have us scrambling for the playoffs.

If 16 of 18 was so spectacularly awesome then shouldnt we maybe be doing better than clawing for the playoffs?

Its a good run. But its wasted off-setting bad runs. Which it appears we're about to head down again.

Awesome small-sample performances are great, but in the context of the Flames they just offset previous and/or upcoming Awful small-sample performances.

And what is everyone clamoring for? Is it.....it is! Consistency!

Yes...they were brutal out of the gate, hence the phrase "starting to come around".

And again, they are right there in the pack with a bunch of teams who also have flaws and such. The losing streaks and winning streaks are not property of the Flames alone.

As for the consistency thing..yup. Thats what every team strives for. This teams core is still very young, so it should come as no surprise they have the ups and downs they have experienced.

I dunno, just seems to me that maybe to much was expected (up to each person what that is for sure) from this group when you consider the roster as currently constructed....which brings me back to? Its not the finished product.

As someone stated, they aren't rebuilding any longer, but they are still building.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by SportsJunky

See it's this kind of statement that divides the fans. They have taken 2 points in 2 games where they haven't played all that well. Some would see this as a positive. Just sayin'.

Well then I guess we're divided because I don't see a positive in getting only one point at home against the weakest team in the league, who has emotionally checked out on the season already.

[FlamesAddiction]

The team has actually exceeded my expectations, but I mostly attribute that to Mike Smith, who has been really good for most of the season. He had a couple of poor games, but for the most part, he is the biggest reason this team isn't a bottom feeder.

I guess it's up to interpretation and debate whether the talent is lacking, or whether coaching is the main issue. I find goal differential to be a surprisingly simple yet accurate indicator of a team's actual ability. The fact we have the 2nd worst differential out of all teams currently in a playoff spot and 3 non-playoff teams have better, is very telling. If this team, as it is, makes the playoffs, I am afraid they are going to get smoked again.

You need to be able to roll 4 lines, especially in the playoffs. The top line is currently getting it done, but when things get serious in the playoffs, they will be under more abuse than ever.

So either we lack the depth and talent in the line-up, or the current coaching can't get anything out players who aren't able to persevere because of raw talent. Or some combination of both. I lean towards coaching, but I don't claim to know for sure.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yes...they were brutal out of the gate, hence the phrase "starting to come around".

And again, they are right there in the pack with a bunch of teams who also have flaws and such. The losing streaks and winning streaks are not property of the Flames alone.

As for the consistency thing..yup. Thats what every team strives for. This teams core is still very young, so it should come as no surprise they have the ups and downs they have experienced.

I dunno, just seems to me that maybe to much was expected (up to each person what that is for sure) from this group when you consider the roster as currently constructed....which brings me back to? Its not the finished product.

As someone stated, they aren't rebuilding any longer, but they are still building.

Great discussion on the FAN this morning about excuses. Far too many excuses get handed out to this team, far too often.

The difference between all the so-so teams in the middle of the pack, and the good teams is consistency. I am tired of continually letting them off the hook with the usual excuses.

We can accept that inconsistency is normal, or we can demand more, and stop excusing mediocrity.

[transplant99]

Who is making excuses?

Young players are inconsistent. Full stop.