Should the Flames fire Gulutzan?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Well, you can choose to live in fear and paralysis of action.

But professional sports teams are about results. If things aren't working, you fix them. You don't sit around and worry that the next move might be worse.

For sure but the opposite is true as well.

Organizations that panic and make changes when they believe they have the pieces in place are doomed to mediocrity for a generation.

So first off enough with the "results driven league" speeches, I'm well aware of that. But team management is assessing many more variables than the standings when they make a move, and until I see otherwise I think the team is behind Gulutzan, and so is the management staff.

Someone said they are a great five on five team but a terrible special teams club and I think that is spot on, and needs to be alleviated. They could fire assistant coaches but the same two guys has the Flames special teams in the top of the circuit in the second half last year. So it comes down to personnel and last night they walked out a new option with Tkachuk and Backlund ... they had their looks. Hopefully that helps.

I was all for firing Hartley when he went, so I'm not just a "never fire the coach" guy. I think they team is young, and with that comes inconsistency, but the systems five on five are your bread and butter and they are just fine to me.

Those that think the goaltending is saving this team ... they are ranked 19th in team save percentage. The year before they were 21st.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by DJones

That's just sample size. Most teams have led going into the 2nd more than 8 times.

Just explaining that we might not be as fragile as he thought. Just saying, if we're considered fragile, then I guess 20 other teams could be having the same conversation.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

For sure but the opposite is true as well.

Organizations that panic and make changes when they believe they have the pieces in place are doomed to mediocrity for a generation.

So first off enough with the "results driven league" speeches, I'm well aware of that. But team management is assessing many more variables than the standings when they make a move, and until I see otherwise I think the team is behind Gulutzan, and so is the management staff.

Someone said they are a great five on five team but a terrible special teams club and I think that is spot on, and needs to be alleviated. They could fire assistant coaches but the same two guys has the Flames special teams in the top of the circuit in the second half last year. So it comes down to personnel and last night they walked out a new option with Tkachuk and Backlund ... they had their looks. Hopefully that helps.

I was all for firing Hartley when he went, so I'm not just a "never fire the coach" guy. I think they team is young, and with that comes inconsistency, but the systems five on five are your bread and butter and they are just fine to me.

Those that think the goaltending is saving this team ... they are ranked 19th in team save percentage. The year before they were 21st.

I already replied to Cali on this front.

But to the bold... that is my point. A lot of people blamed last season on goaltending. I don't think anyone would argue that goaltending has been the problem this year.

So if it isn't goaltending, what is it?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Absolutely. And I fully advocate patience when it comes to building a team.

I was replying directly to a point that Classic_Sniper had made, which was that he was arguing that a coaching change might make things worse. My point was that you cannot be afraid to make changes, you have to be bold enough to make the changes that you believe are right or necessary.

Winnipeg's case is an interesting one. Because I am not a fan of the coach. But their #1 problem was goaltending, and when that got fixed, the high level of talent on the team finally showed through.

So let's bring that back to Calgary. Very similar in the sense that the goaltending sucked, there were questions about the coaching, and the team was under-performing. Well, we fixed our goaltending too. Yet things haven't improved. So now what?

No, I'm on your team now. I think coaching and leadership is a core issue with this team. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate a little to keep things in perspective. It's entirely possible that we're all wrong to want Gulutzan gone and the team needs it's young core to mature enough to win regularly and not just some of the time.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I already replied to Cali on this front.

But to the bold... that is my point. A lot of people blamed last season on goaltending. I don't think anyone would argue that goaltending has been the problem this year.

So if it isn't goaltending, what is it?

Isn't it obvious? The team isn't good enough. Time to stop drinking our own bathwater.

Flames lack speed (big time, especially on D).

Lack skill (Treliving himself admitted as much, but when Kris Versteeg going down has a huge impact on your PP you know that something's wrong).

And lack depth. (The fourth line does not belong in the NHL, emergence of the 3rd line is nice but is only counteracting the decline in the 2nd line).

Finally, they lack hunger. Not enough guys out there with something to prove. Not enough natural roster turnover and guys nipping to bust into larger roles. This is the byproduct of no depth. Vegas is a great example of how having unreal depth pushes everyone to be greater than the sum of the parts.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

No, I'm on your team now. I think coaching and leadership is a core issue with this team. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate a little to keep things in perspective. It's entirely possible that we're all wrong to want Gulutzan gone and the team needs it's young core to mature enough to win regularly and not just some of the time.

That's where I'm at

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Bingo

For sure but the opposite is true as well.

Organizations that panic and make changes when they believe they have the pieces in place are doomed to mediocrity for a generation.

So first off enough with the "results driven league" speeches, I'm well aware of that. But team management is assessing many more variables than the standings when they make a move, and until I see otherwise I think the team is behind Gulutzan, and so is the management staff.

Someone said they are a great five on five team but a terrible special teams club and I think that is spot on, and needs to be alleviated. They could fire assistant coaches but the same two guys has the Flames special teams in the top of the circuit in the second half last year. So it comes down to personnel and last night they walked out a new option with Tkachuk and Backlund ... they had their looks. Hopefully that helps.

I was all for firing Hartley when he went, so I'm not just a "never fire the coach" guy. I think they team is young, and with that comes inconsistency, but the systems five on five are your bread and butter and they are just fine to me.

Those that think the goaltending is saving this team ... they are ranked 19th in team save percentage. The year before they were 21st.

The major issue is that under GG the Flames are a sub .500 team in regulation. His record has been propped up by 3 on 3 wins, which involve zero coaching or systems. There is no 3 on 3 in the playoffs, so I'm not sure how they can ever expect a GG coached team to be successful in the playoffs.

Perhaps he is a great coach, but just not the right coach for the Flames team as it is constructed.

I personally think his 5 on 5 system is more about not making mistakes than in trying to force mistakes from the other team. At this level great teams don't make many unforced mistakes, so the Flames end up waiting too long for a mistake to capitalize on.

To me this is exemplified by our PK, which is all about staying in position and essentially daring the other team to make a great play to score...but guess what, at this level most teams have at least one unit capable of doing that.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

It's entirely possible that we're all wrong to want Gulutzan gone and the team needs it's young core to mature enough to win regularly and not just some of the time.

Or it's entirely possible that some of us have been around the block long enough to know a thing or two about the game and can see problems a mile away. Some of us were smart enough to recognize that it was stupid to sign Lack, keep Bartkowski on the roster, let Stajan continue to try and play, and know that solutions to some of our problems were available in the system, rather than bringing in retreads. Some of us have seen enough coaches, done enough coaching, to recognize the signs that a guy is not in his element. The problem is not that the core is not mature enough, it is that the coach continues to make stupid decisions when it comes to roster selection, assignments, line matching, and playing time. You can't win game when you play your weakest players in the dying minutes of games, time and time again. It is the mature players on the team where the problems lay, not the youth.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

The major issue is that under GG the Flames are a sub .500 team in regulation. His record has been propped up by 3 on 3 wins, which involve zero coaching or systems. There is no 3 on 3 in the playoffs, so I'm not sure how they can ever expect a GG coached team to be successful in the playoffs.

Perhaps he is a great coach, but just not the right coach for the Flames team as it is constructed.

I personally think his 5 on 5 system is more about not making mistakes than in trying to force mistakes from the other team. At this level great teams don't make many unforced mistakes, so the Flames end up waiting too long for a mistake to capitalize on.

To me this is exemplified by our PK, which is all about staying in position and essentially daring the other team to make a great play to score...but guess what, at this level most teams have at least one unit capable of doing that.

Do those wins still counts as ROWs? If so, then yes, you MUST give Gulutzan credit for utilizing his personnel so well in OT and creating a good system to turn pucks over and create odd man chances that end up winning the game.

Gulutzan is a good coach 5 on 5. He's possibly the best coach in the league for 3 on 3. His special teams suck, and that might be because he defers to his assistants, but the buck stops with him. The problem seems to be getting the most out of his roster consistently. Some guys are going when others are not, and perhaps that's not GGs fault, but it also might be his fault and he deserves the criticism of not getting the entire roster playing well at the same time.

All I know is that it isn't changing much during his tenure, but hopefully something clicks for this team and they go on a run here soon. I just want them to be comfortably in a playoff spot. Until they are, all criticism is warranted.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by New Era

Or it's entirely possible that some of us have been around the block long enough to know a thing or two about the game and can see problems a mile away. Some of us were smart enough to recognize that it was stupid to sign Lack, keep Bartkowski on the roster, let Stajan continue to try and play, and know that solutions to some of our problems were available in the system, rather than bringing in retreads. Some of us have seen enough coaches, done enough coaching, to recognize the signs that a guy is not in his element. The problem is not that the core is not mature enough, it is that the coach continues to make stupid decisions when it comes to roster selection, assignments, line matching, and playing time. You can't win game when you play your weakest players in the dying minutes of games, time and time again. It is the mature players on the team where the problems lay, not the youth.

Damn I wish I had your wisdom.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

I personally think his 5 on 5 system is more about not making mistakes than in trying to force mistakes from the other team. At this level great teams don't make many unforced mistakes, so the Flames end up waiting too long for a mistake to capitalize on.

This simply isn't true

The Flames are one of the highest scoring event teams (both ways) in hockey. They go for it all the time.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I already replied to Cali on this front.

But to the bold... that is my point. A lot of people blamed last season on goaltending. I don't think anyone would argue that goaltending has been the problem this year.

So if it isn't goaltending, what is it?

Last year it was goaltending at the start of the year and playoffs. If Moose had delivered tending in the post-season as well as he did for the bulk of the regular season then I don't doubt he would have be re-signed. However his playoffs where a complete disaster and you simply couldn't bring him back.
But during the regular season last year goaltending was only slightly worse than it has been this season.

[sa226]

Its where Im at too.

Something just isnt working. You can point to the parity in the league. It seems like they have been the victims of "parity" in a number of games. They play well, give up few goals, own the possession game....and lose.

Whatever you want to call it, they're missing that hunger, mojo, x factor that pushes good teams to be great teams. The power play is aweful and losing the team important games. With the talent available, how can you not adapt to the loss of Versteeg?

Maybe Treliving knew exactly what he was saying when his biggest concern for the year was scoring.

Maybe Gulutzan knows exactly what he's talking about when he says that you win with special teams.

Because both of those things are killing the Flames.

People point to our top 6 D as overrated. I disagree. I think they are poorly utilized. Under Hartley, the defense was the driving force for the team, and made up for the lack of talent among the forwards. Under The current system I think a bunch of average safe defenceman would be just as effective as the current group. (Kinds like Carolina's group when they won the cup) Yet our terrifying defense that was in the conversation with Nashville for the best in league, is looking pretty average.

I think Freeway mentioned that a big reason for the hire of Gulutzan was that he and Treliving see the game the same way.

I think that points to Treliving seeking a numbers/robotic solution, like adding offence through a trade. To hopefully help the powerplay and turn the tide.

To me with every passing game, I don't see that as the solution.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

[Major Major]

In 2/2 of GG full seasons as a head coach, his teams have taken off in the second half.

I think this organization has flawed thinking in many respects.
I am also NOT sold on this coach. However, I still see staying the course as their most likely path to success this season. I also see it as having the least downside. If this team though cannot figure out that in a season that they traded their first round pick that they need the organization's best players on the roster of the NHL club, coaching doesn't really matter.

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Do those wins still counts as ROWs? If so, then yes, you MUST give Gulutzan credit for utilizing his personnel so well in OT and creating a good system to turn pucks over and create odd man chances that end up winning the game.

Gulutzan is a good coach 5 on 5. He's possibly the best coach in the league for 3 on 3. His special teams suck, and that might be because he defers to his assistants, but the buck stops with him. The problem seems to be getting the most out of his roster consistently. Some guys are going when others are not, and perhaps that's not GGs fault, but it also might be his fault and he deserves the criticism of not getting the entire roster playing well at the same time.

All I know is that it isn't changing much during his tenure, but hopefully something clicks for this team and they go on a run here soon. I just want them to be comfortably in a playoff spot. Until they are, all criticism is warranted.

Problem is, under Hartley the Flames were a great 3v3 team as well - so its not like he came in and made it better, he just didnt break it.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Bingo

This simply isn't true

The Flames are one of the highest scoring event teams (both ways) in hockey. They go for it all the time.

Remember when we made fun of the Oilers for winning the advanced stats battle, but losing games?

Perhaps the definition of "scoring event" is not useful, and doesn't measure real scoring chances. People try to identify high danger scoring chances, but it's really hard to do objectively, other than shots from the high danger area. But even counting those treats every velocity shot, screened or unscreened as the same.

I don't know how anyone can watch the Flames and not see an overly passive system with little puck pressure and no defense of either the centre line or blue line.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Damn I wish I had your wisdom.

You do. You just spend too much time being analytical to know it. You're a smart guy Bingo, you just don't know when you're overanalyzing things.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Do those wins still counts as ROWs? If so, then yes, you MUST give Gulutzan credit for utilizing his personnel so well in OT and creating a good system to turn pucks over and create odd man chances that end up winning the game.

Gulutzan is a good coach 5 on 5. He's possibly the best coach in the league for 3 on 3. His special teams suck, and that might be because he defers to his assistants, but the buck stops with him. The problem seems to be getting the most out of his roster consistently. Some guys are going when others are not, and perhaps that's not GGs fault, but it also might be his fault and he deserves the criticism of not getting the entire roster playing well at the same time.

All I know is that it isn't changing much during his tenure, but hopefully something clicks for this team and they go on a run here soon. I just want them to be comfortably in a playoff spot. Until they are, all criticism is warranted.

3 on 3 is skill driven, not system driven. Case in point. Hartley was 9-4 in both previous seasons in 3 on 3.

This team was a 3 on 3 force before GG got here and it's largely due to our mobile defense and Gaudreau magic.

I think we need to take a look at why this team is so good in 3 on 3, and so bad in regulation. And I firmly believe one of those two scenarios is more about skill, and one is more about a team system.

I'd also like to point out that even mr stubborn GG is not able to play some of his favourites in OT (Brouwer, Stajan) which I think helps our chances of winning.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Remember when we made fun of the Oilers for winning the advanced stats battle, but losing games?

Perhaps the definition of "scoring event" is not useful, and doesn't measure real scoring chances. People try to identify high danger scoring chances, but it's really hard to do objectively, other than shots from the high danger area. But even counting those treats every velocity shot, screened or unscreened as the same.

I don't know how anyone can watch the Flames and not see an overly passive system with little puck pressure and no defense of either the centre line or blue line.

When we were making fun of Dallas Eakins teams, they'd already sewed up their top pick, by November. This is not that. Although not living up to expectations, the flames are not a tire fire this season.

When the flames are playing well, which they have been for the passed several weeks, their system is not passive at all. As for defending the red line? That's not really a thing.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by New Era

You do. You just spend too much time being analytical to know it. You're a smart guy Bingo, you just don't know when you're overanalyzing things.

This post is terrible.