Should the Flames fire Gulutzan?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by tkflames

And then promptly got outcoavhed for 4 straight for an early exit. Flames got caugt on a 3 on 0 in a "trick play" Anaheim had showed a week earlier....games in this league are won and lost on a single shift in a tight game. Every detail, every matchup matters.

I think you mean out-goaltended, the coaching was fine and the powerplay was firing on all cylinders. Brian Elliott let the team down with the multitude of weak goals he allowed. We had the worst save% of any goaltender entering the playoffs last season and it reared it's ugly head against Anaheim. I certainly don't blame the coach and his staff for those losses. Anyone who watched that series could tell Elliott was to blame for that early exit.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I think you mean out-goaltended, the coaching was fine and the powerplay was firing on all cylinders. Brian Elliott let the team down with the multitude of weak goals he allowed. We had the worst save% of any goaltender entering the playoffs last season and it reared it's ugly head against Anaheim. I certainly don't blame the coach and his staff for those losses. Anyone who watched that series could tell Elliott was to blame for that early exit.

I certainly agree with you that the coaches were not the only reason the flames lost and likely not even the primary reason. However you sold it as GG and his coaching staff earning all of this good will because they made the playoffs last year allowing you to ignore line matching other short comings. It took the longest winning streak in team history, led largely by good goaltending to make it there. The rest of the season was a turd and rather than building on last season the team is no further ahead.

Something isn't adding up with this dud of a coaching staff.

[tkflames]

For those still on the fence or in the pro Gulutzan camp, perform the mental exercise of other coaching staffs in the NHL that you wouldn't trade this one for. I can think of maybe 3 (Winnipeg, Arizona and then it gets pretty thin....maybe Edmonton but that's likely just because of the stink)

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by tkflames

I certainly agree with you that the coaches were not the only reason the flames lost and likely not even the primary reason. However you sold it as GG and his coaching staff earning all of this good will because they made the playoffs last year allowing you to ignore line matching other short comings. It took the longest winning streak in team history, led largely by good goaltending to make it there. The rest of the season was a turd and rather than building on last season the team is no further ahead.

Something isn't adding up with this dud of a coaching staff.

That 10 game winning streak was not aided by goaltending, in fact I remember watching a lot of those games and thinking we were winning games in spite of our goaltending. Brian Elliott gave up weak goals all season long. The 10 game win streak occurred right after we acquired Stone and relegated Wideman to the press box. That was the single largest reason for the win streak.

As for the 10 wins itself, if you take that away, the team was still 30-23-3. So no, I disagree with you that the rest of the season was turd.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by tkflames

For those still on the fence or in the pro Gulutzan camp, perform the mental exercise of other coaching staffs in the NHL that you wouldn't trade this one for. I can think of maybe 3 (Winnipeg, Arizona and then it gets pretty thin....maybe Edmonton but that's likely just because of the stink)

Zero guarantee that any other coaching staff would guarantee results. Just look at the whole Dallas Eakins/Oiler era. Everyone thought he was a terrible coach and then a winning coach in Todd McLellan comes in and the team was still bad and stuck in the basement. The exact same scenario could easily happen here.

My belief is that there's far too much blame on coaches these days especially since the strategies of the game are essentially the same from team to team. All coaches demand hard work, they demand backchecking, they demand attention to detail. Every coach is just clone of one another these days because it's such a reactionary game where split second decisions determine the out come of every game. I'm steadfast in my belief that the players on the ice are the biggest determining factor of whether we win or lose and I'm not going to scapegoat a coach that isn't as bad as everyone thinks he is.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Zero guarantee that any other coaching staff would guarantee results. Just look at the whole Dallas Eakins/Oiler era. Everyone thought he was a terrible coach and then a winning coach in Todd McLellan comes in and the team was still bad and stuck in the basement. The exact same scenario could easily happen here.

My belief is that there's far too much blame on coaches these days especially since the strategies of the game are essentially the same from team to team. All coaches demand hard work, they demand backchecking, they demand attention to detail. Every coach is just clone of one another these days because it's such a reactionary game where split second decisions determine the out come of every game. I'm steadfast in my belief that the players on the ice are the biggest determining factor of whether we win or lose and I'm not going to scapegoat a coach that isn't as bad as everyone thinks he is.

Of course the same thing could happen here. But in that scenario, what has been lost?

The team is under-performing (which sucks). They replace the coach and the team continues to under-perform. So we're even. And in fact we're still ahead, because we learned something. We learned that either a) the team isn't as good as we thought, and now we can fix it, or b) that Treliving doesn't know how to pick a coach.

BUT...

Something else might happen. Maybe a new coach actually takes the team to the next level.

Sounds a lot like a no lose situation to me.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Of course the same thing could happen here. But in that scenario, what has been lost?

The team is under-performing (which sucks). They replace the coach and the team continues to under-perform. So we're even. And in fact we're still ahead, because we learned something. We learned that either a) the team isn't as good as we thought, and now we can fix it, or b) that Treliving doesn't know how to pick a coach.

BUT...

Something else might happen. Maybe a new coach actually takes the team to the next level.

Sounds a lot like a no lose situation to me.

Or a new coach comes in and our season tanks like The Avalanche and half the roster demands to be traded and we get pennies on the dollar. There's a lot worse that can happen. Like I said earlier, it's not like we're a bottom feeder right now so we have a lot to lose. If everyone remembers, Treliving took his sweet time selecting this coach. If Gulutzan were to be fired, who's to say that Treliving wouldn't find another guy exactly like Gulutzan who checks all of Tre's boxes like GG did?

[Enoch Root]

Well, you can choose to live in fear and paralysis of action.

But professional sports teams are about results. If things aren't working, you fix them. You don't sit around and worry that the next move might be worse.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Well, you can choose to live in fear and paralysis of action.

But professional sports teams are about results. If things aren't working, you fix them. You don't sit around and worry that the next move might be worse.

Team made the playoffs last season. Have a chance this season. The coach has NOT been the biggest problem. It's a certain faction of players that need to be be upgraded for us to improve. I'd replace the entire 4th line to start. They've been nothing but ineffective and a complete detriment to this team.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Team made the playoffs last season. Have a chance this season. The coach has NOT been the biggest problem. It's a certain faction of players that need to be be upgraded for us to improve. I'd replace the entire 4th line to start. They've been nothing but ineffective and a complete detriment to this team.

How do you explain this team constantly being unprepared for big games? How do you explain the fragility of the group when they get down? How do you explain how poorly this team plays in front of their sold out building night in and night out?

[Stanley]

An NHL caliber 4th line that's not 87,000 games old and something resembling a PP would go a long way...

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Well, you can choose to live in fear and paralysis of action.

But professional sports teams are about results. If things aren't working, you fix them. You don't sit around and worry that the next move might be worse.

The Winnipeg Jets beg to differ. They've done nothing different outside of losing Pavelec and bringing in Mason, and they're one of the best teams in the league this year with the same coach and largely the same roster that had them near the basement to get Laine, and also missing the playoffs last year. The growth came internally as their young players got better.

I'm not saying it's always the right strategy. I'm just pointing out there are examples of teams "staying the course" and looking better all of a sudden.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Team made the playoffs last season. Have a chance this season.

A well below 50/50 chance of making it again, and trending down, as we're now 4-8 in December. The season is close to halfway done.

IMO we're already at a point where NOT changing the coaching staff is a much bigger risk than changing it.

Personally I don't get why some people are so afraid of making a move here. It's not like Gulutzan is looking like a future hall of fame coach we'll miss, even if there's no improvement.

The coach has NOT been the biggest problem.

Difference of opinion obviously. I actually don't see much else wrong with this team than coaching. (The 4th line is not a big deal.)

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Itse

A well below 50/50 chance of making it again, and trending down, as we're now 4-8 in December. The season is close to halfway done.

IMO we're already at a point where NOT changing the coaching staff is a much bigger risk than changing it.

Personally I don't get why some people are so afraid of making a move here. It's not like Gulutzan is looking like a future hall of fame coach we'll miss, even if there's no improvement.



Difference of opinion obviously. I actually don't see much else wrong with this team than coaching. (The 4th line is not a big deal.)

Really what difference does it make if he's fired in a couple of weeks or the end of the season? He's going to be fired if they miss the playoffs so you either make a move in hopes to change the plight of the team before it's too late or you just ride him to an uncomfortable offseason for management who will largely be spectators at the 2018 draft.

[dash_pinched]

Originally Posted by Itse

Personally I don't get why some people are so afraid of making a move here. It's not like Gulutzan is looking like a future hall of fame coach we'll miss, even if there's no improvement.

To me, it looks like Flames management are hoping to catch lightning in a bottle once again this season. When you couple that with the parity (maybe a better word is mediocrity) throughout the league (save for a couple of teams), it likely is causing hesitation on the Flames pulling the trigger on a coaching change. Is there a better coaching option out there that would be willing to come to Calgary halfway through this season? Just my opinion, but for better or worse, I think we are stuck with GG until the end of this season.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

How do you explain this team constantly being unprepared for big games? How do you explain the fragility of the group when they get down? How do you explain how poorly this team plays in front of their sold out building night in and night out?

These are great questions and if I had all these answers to them then I'd be employed by the team. If people want to point to coaching as the problem then go for it, but I'm not convinced that changing the coach will magically solve these problems either.

But I will counter your fragility piece with the fact that this team is top 10 in wins trailing after both the 1st and 2nd periods. So they're actually pretty good at recollecting themselves and winning games after intermissions.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

The Winnipeg Jets beg to differ. They've done nothing different outside of losing Pavelec and bringing in Mason, and they're one of the best teams in the league this year with the same coach and largely the same roster that had them near the basement to get Laine, and also missing the playoffs last year. The growth came internally as their young players got better.

I'm not saying it's always the right strategy. I'm just pointing out there are examples of teams "staying the course" and looking better all of a sudden.

Absolutely. And I fully advocate patience when it comes to building a team.

I was replying directly to a point that Classic_Sniper had made, which was that he was arguing that a coaching change might make things worse. My point was that you cannot be afraid to make changes, you have to be bold enough to make the changes that you believe are right or necessary.

Winnipeg's case is an interesting one. Because I am not a fan of the coach. But their #1 problem was goaltending, and when that got fixed, the high level of talent on the team finally showed through.

So let's bring that back to Calgary. Very similar in the sense that the goaltending sucked, there were questions about the coaching, and the team was under-performing. Well, we fixed our goaltending too. Yet things haven't improved. So now what?

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

These are great questions and if I had all these answers to them then I'd be employed by the team. If people want to point to coaching as the problem then go for it, but I'm not convinced that changing the coach will magically solve these problems either.

But I will counter your fragility piece with the fact that this team is top 10 in wins trailing after both the 1st and 2nd periods. So they're actually pretty good at recollecting themselves and winning games after intermissions.

That's just sample size. Most teams have led going into the 2nd more than 8 times.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Under Gulutzan, I think this team is done - right now. Glen Eakins doesn't have the answers to any questions about what is wrong with the team, or how to win games. Sad times to be a Flames fan, especially with the talent they have on the roster.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Itse

A well below 50/50 chance of making it again, and trending down, as we're now 4-8 in December. The season is close to halfway done.

IMO we're already at a point where NOT changing the coaching staff is a much bigger risk than changing it.

Personally I don't get why some people are so afraid of making a move here. It's not like Gulutzan is looking like a future hall of fame coach we'll miss, even if there's no improvement.



Difference of opinion obviously. I actually don't see much else wrong with this team than coaching. (The 4th line is not a big deal.)

I don't see that risk at all because there's absolutely zero guarantees that changing a coach will magically fix all our problems. Who's even on the market right now that would be a considerable upgrade?

So the coaching staff gets the boot for allegedly under-performing, but the 4th line who doesn't score, doesn't drive play, doesn't effective games positively and is complete detriment to the team while being one of the most expensive 4th lines in the league get a pass somehow?

See, this is what I don't get, how does this line constantly get a free pass? Being expectedly terrible shouldn't just be forgotten. These guys still play a significant amount of minutes and with how close the games are constantly, they contribute to whether we win or lose. Look at just last night as an example, Stajan takes another dumb penalty which causes a powerplay goal to be scored and we end up losing. If we had a 4th line that could help us win a couple games like the Canadiens, Leafs, Flyers and etc did against us maybe we'd be at 20 wins instead and in a playoff position and this thread wouldn't exist.